Building Three Companies Alongside Your Family | Robert Wolfe (Dad of 2, founder - Zeck, Crowdrise, Moosejaw)

[00:00:00] Robert: You know, I think we really both at work and at home, try to not believe our own bullshit and think we have any idea what we're doing. I've never read a business book. I've never read a parenting book, and we're just trying to figure everything out as quickly and efficiently as possible. Did you see the movie Dazed and Confused?

[00:00:20] Adam: I sure did.

[00:00:22] Robert: Okay. So, you know, at the end of the movie, they're on the football field and I think the character is Dawson, he says, I wanna have as much fun as I can while I'm in this place.

Right? And I sort of had that same attitude with my kids

[00:00:35] Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. On today's episode, I sat down with Robert Wolfe. Robert is the co-founder of Zeck, a company. He started with his brother and Edward Norton to take the misery out of board meetings.

He was also the founder of fundraising platform CrowdRise, which he sold to GoFundMe and Mooses Jaw Mountaineering, which he sold to Walmart. He's a fellow University of Michigan graduate like me, a husband and the father of two sons. In our conversation today, we spoke about his journey founding Moose Jaw and establishing community influencer and experiential marketing.

Before they were well established strategies, how he met Ed Norton and what it's like founding multiple companies with a celebrity founding companies with your brother. Raising a family while building two companies, and the modern day process for helping your kids apply to college and find the right fit, something both of his kids have done recently.

Throughout our conversation, Robert told some fascinating stories about building companies and raising a family. I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Robert Wolfe.

[00:01:56] Adam: Welcome Robert Wolfe to the Startup Dad Podcast. Robert it is my absolute pleasure to have you here with me today.

[00:02:06] Robert: Let's decide if that's gonna be the case in like 20 minutes.

[00:02:11] Adam: Okay. A few things before we like really get into the meat of the discussion today. One is, I keep wanting to call you Robert Zeck. Just some, because that's the name of the company that you're currently running and it just feels like that's a good last name for you, but your last name is Wolfe.

Second of all related to Zeck, I have this Startup Dad mug here and on the, you too could own this mug someday. And on the back of the mug it says board meetings and bedtime stories um, which is very relevant to your company, Zeck, so tell me a little bit about Zeck, your current company.

[00:02:49] Robert: First, thank you. Thank you for having me, Zeck. We are, we are trying to reimagine the entire board meeting process, really built from our own life experience dealing with boards as both operators and investors. And board members not really understanding while we were going through our own journey that the angst and challenges that we were having are universal.

And I could tell you the whole story, but the end of the story is that we're trying to reimagine the board meeting.

[00:03:21] Adam: Okay. Well, as somebody who has sat on both sides of that table as a board member and as a participant in board meetings, I appreciate that you are working on reimagining that process.

[00:03:31] Robert: Oh, they're the worst, right?

[00:03:33] Adam: Often very painful for everyone involved. So, yes. Well, great. so the reason that I'm very excited, not just because you are reimagining the board process, there's actually several reasons. The first is that you went to the University of Michigan, which is my alma mater. So go blue. The second one is that you also founded one of my all time favorite retailers, which is a company called Moose Jaw Mountaineering. And you founded two other companies, but I.

I particularly love Moose Jaw, even though, may it rest in peace, it's not around anymore. And we'll get into that maybe. And then third reason that I'm excited because this is parenting podcast. You have both a high schooler, a senior in high school, and you have a kid who is midway through their college journey.

And as someone who is looking into the future for himself. I will be in your position someday and I'm hoping to learn something new today about that journey.

[00:04:35] Robert: I will tell you the last person you want any advice from is me. But I have two boys. And they, to say they fought like mad would be an understatement to the point that there was really no controlling it. So we had a room in our house that we called the fighting room. So the, well, I suppose there was no stopping it, but our version of trying to control it was if they were fighting in the kitchen, we wouldn't say, you can't fight.

We would say you have to go into the fighting room. And the fighting room was just the room where we have our tv, right? Is our tv we, when I was a kid, we called it the TV room, right. I think normal people call it a living room or a family room. But still today when the kids come over, and they wanna watch tv.

They call it the fighting room. So it has lived on and it actually did provide some sense of control, so anyone who, with two boys or kids who are fighting the fighting room there, it does bring some semblance of order to the chaos.

[00:05:38] Adam: This sounds like me and my brother when we were growing up, I don't know that we had a..

[00:05:41] Robert: Me and my brother too,

[00:05:43] Adam: I don't know that we had a fighting room, but that was probably every room of the house actually.

[00:05:46] Robert: Right? Right.

[00:05:47] Adam: Okay. So for folks who are maybe not as historically enamored with Moose Jaw mountaineering as myself or maybe they aren't from the Midwest. Tell me about Moose Jaw and tell me about founding and running that company, which I think you did for over two decades.

If I'm doing the math correctly.

[00:06:07] Robert: Yeah. So I, first I appreciate it so much. I love Moose Jaw. The whole journey was incredibly challenging. We couldn't have worked any harder, but also super fun. So when I graduated from Michigan, I had no idea what I was gonna do with my life and a, a friend and I we were backpackers and campers and it really started off as a joke and we said, okay, we're gonna open an outdoor shop.

I mean, just for people who don't know Moose Jaw, we sold North Face and Patagonia and brands like that. And as we started doing more and more research, we said, Hey, this, maybe there's something to this. And this was in 1992, so pre-internet, probably your listeners, none of them were even born. But , we opened at a little tiny shop in, it's called Keo Harbor, Michigan. And I'm a big believer in luck and we got super lucky. I think mostly because we had no idea what we were doing and didn't know the rules to break. So I am not being hyperbolic when I tell this story. When people came into our shop, I never said to them, can I help you?

I just, I was the kid who hated going to the mall. I just didn't even know to say that. So we said. Do you wanna go play home run derby in the parking lot? And we actually had home run derby set up in the parking lot and this idea of connecting with the customer about something that had nothing to do with the product.

Now people call it experiential retail, or even online it would be blogging, right? We were doing that by accident and people would just come to the shop and hang out. And then I ended up falling in love with the internet and we really tried to find ways to get this craziness, we called it nonsensical marketing to translate.

And for us, that turned into engagement. And there was no, that wasn't a buzzword in 1995. But that's what we were trying to do. So we really felt like we built this community alongside our customers. They were on the journey with us. And if you're familiar with Moose Jaw, I mean to say we did some crazy campaigns, it would be an understatement.

You couldn't do 'em today, that's for sure. But it was really fun. And we were eventually acquired by Walmart. And you mentioned sort of the death of Moose Jaw. Last year Walmart sold Moose Jaw to Dick's and Dick's ended up shutting it down.

[00:08:26] Adam: And you know. I'm sure that the journey was amazing. I am so sad about that. My wife still has a Moose jaw sweatshirt somewhere in the house. Like it was just a brand. There was one in my hometown. It was a brand I grew up with, so I loved it. I, and I think the other thing that I really love about that company, and that brand was sort of what you just described, Moose Jaw was building community and bringing customers into marketing campaigns way before it was fashionable to do that. You know, a couple things. I did some research just 'cause I didn't remember some of these, but like, you built the world's tallest moose statue in your parking lot

[00:09:04] Robert: That was a good one.

[00:09:06] Adam: You're doing this like kind of what today would be called Influencer Marketing with the Moose Jaw Madness Program. And like reaching out to folks who are kind of mountain climbers and like people doing extreme sports and stuff like that. And just like having them talk about their passions, about Moose Jaw.

Like that was pretty revolutionary in the nineties and early two thousands. Like today it sort of feels like commonplace, but back then it was not.

[00:09:31] Robert: Yeah, I'll give you an example sort of that I wouldn't say quite, this was the genesis of it because we were pretty into it at this time, but I think it's an easy example to understand is when we did our first Moose Jaw print catalog, and maybe this was in 2000, right? We had some cover shots and we didn't know which one to include, so we were like, you know what?

Fuck it. Let's ask our customers. And so we sent an email to our, this is pre-social media, right? We sent an email to our customers saying, Hey, we have six catalog covers to choose from, which do you like best? So it was sort of crowdsourcing before that was a word, but genuinely because we wanted our customers' feedback.

It wasn't from marketing, it wasn't a means to an end, I suppose it was a means to an end and, but that kind of engagement, which came pretty natural to us, and again, I think it was just lucky. That turned into the way we interacted with our customers over time. And that part was really fun.

And we tried to take those lessons and apply 'em to our next company, CrowdRise. And and now Zeck,

[00:10:34] Adam: Yeah, and a lot of this kind of feels a little bit like the embodiment of you in a way. Like a lot of the ethos of Moose Jaw feels like Robert out, like as a company. Just based on the couple of conversations that you and I have had leading up to today.

[00:10:50] Robert: I appreciate that. I'll take it as a compliment, but it really was a team effort. So my brother and my sister were both in the business with me. And at our new company, Zeck, the person who ran brand at Moose Jaw, and CrowdRise does the same at Zeck, the person who ran marketing at Moose Jaw, and CrowdRise now does it at Zeck.

So we've been really lucky to have this core group around us. I mean, I might cry thinking of them probably more so than talking about my kids. And we just, we speak each other's language so easily.

[00:11:21] Adam: That's pretty amazing. Speaking of your brother, so your brother, I think is like co-founder of multiple of these entities with you including, CrowdRise, Moose Jaw, Zeck, the other co-founder that you had with CrowdRise and now Zeck is Ed Norton. And so. When I think about tech founders, I don't usually think of the star of Fight Club.

And so how did you and Ed Norton come into each other's orbit? And what is it like founding a bunch of companies with a celebrity?

[00:11:54] Robert: So first, Edward is a badass. He couldn't be any nicer. Super humble, crazy smart. So again, you'll probably hear me say this 10 more times. I just really lucky. I was really lucky. So what happened is that when my brother and I were leaving Moose Jaw, we wanted to do something better for the world and we started researching the giving space and came to the conclusion that it is boring and burdensome and guilt-ridden.

And if you think about in 2010 it it was actually really challenging to easily give to the causes you cared about online. So having this as e-commerce background, we thought we could do a better job just on the tech side, but we ended up reaching out to, at the time, Edward's girlfriend, her name's Shauna Robertson.

So Shauna, she started Apatow Productions with Judd Apatow. So her Elf, 40-year-old Virgin, Anchorman, these are her movies, right? So we reached out to Shauna. Because she's brilliant and I'm, I've been friends with her for life and said, Hey, we have this idea. Do you think any of your squad of celebrities would be interested in, in, when they do something for Cause doing it on a, platform which didn't exist at the time, and when I say her squad, it's Seth Rogan and Jonah Hill and Steve Carell and Will Ferrell, et cetera.

Edward Norton grabbed the phone and said, Hey, I'm running the New York Marathon to raise money for one of my causes. Do you all wanna do this together? And we said, fuck yeah. Right. So this was long before CrowdRise. We built a campaign with Edward for this, for the New York Marathon. I ended up running with him, and our goal was to raise $75,000.

And through all these new crazy ideas we had, we ended up raising 1.2 million. So it was phenomenally successful and we said, okay, we can build a bespoke version of this. And that turned into CrowdRise. So I've been working with Edward for 15 years now and he is as good as it gets.

[00:13:57] Adam: Wow. Wow, that's amazing. And then of course, CrowdRise, you ended up selling to GoFundMe, which I think launched GoFundMe's, like the bulk of their kind of nonprofit focused giving arm. Which is pretty amazing. 

[00:14:10] Robert: Yeah, no, GoFundMe was doing, if you wanted to raise money for your friend whose house burned down, right? You do it on GoFundMe and if you wanted to raise money for the Red Cross or UNICEF or American Cancer Society, you do it on crowd rise. So there was this very natural fit and I remember, I love that he's no longer the CEO, but the CEO of GoFundMe you talk about alignment. We went to meet with them. So it was my brother, me and Edward, they were in Redwood City in California. We walked into the room and the CEO of GoFundMe said, Hey, you guys stole our slogan. I said, no, you fuck that. You stole our slogan. Right. So that's literally how, how we met. So it was just great synergy from the getgo.

[00:14:53] Adam: Awesome. Awesome. Speaking of synergy, you founded all these companies with your brother and we talked about the fighting room in the beginning of this what were you and your brother like as kids? You think you were always destined to be founders of companies together?

[00:15:07] Robert: Definitely not. Well first I'm about four and a half years older than my brother, so it's not like we were sitting around when I was 13 and he was, you know, eight and a half talking about founding a company together. But I think, you know, we both love the brand building process.

Right. And we just were so aligned and maniacal about the importance of that. And so that's always been great for us. And also we, you know, I'll have an idea and. When we're working with a team, everyone's nice to each other, but my brother will say, and he'll say it regularly, no, that's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard, and we can just move on.

So we're just able to go a little bit faster and we have this rule with my brother and with Edward which has served us really well, whoever's more passionate wins. And so if it's a flip of a coin and we're not able to make a data-driven decision, we just say whoever cares the most gets to make the decision and that's worked Really well for us.

Adam: That's awesome. That's like, I wrote this article that talked about you should make a decision in a room based on the number of fucks given by a,

[00:16:15] Robert: I love that.

[00:16:16] Adam: particular person. And so this is sort of that equivalent with you and your brother. Yeah.

[00:16:20] Robert: I love it. That is amazing.

[00:16:21] Adam: Yeah. Okay, so now you have a partner a wife, and you have two kids.

Did you meet your wife at U of M?

[00:16:28] Robert: No, mentioned before a lot of the campaigns we did at most Jaw you couldn't do anymore. I. I probably wouldn't have started going out with my wife today, but she worked at our Moose Jaw in East Lansing, so she went to Michigan State, and it's really I think it's funny at the time I was like, fuck it. There's nothing to sue us for, right? Because we had no money, so I didn't care. But then fast forward, I don't know, five, 10 years. And my brother wanted to date someone who worked at one of the stores, and I said, you absolutely cannot do that. And he said, no, you did.

And so we literally, we still talk about it to this day. We got our employment attorney on the phone to try to mitigate this, and it lasted about a second. He basically said, Jeffrey, no, there's, you cannot do that. So that was shut down very quickly.

[00:17:20] Adam: Oh wow, that's funny. 

And I mean, this is a house divided too. If your wife went to Michigan State and worked in the East Lansing store, which is where Michigan State, for those who are listening at home. It's where Michigan State is based. And you went to U of M, I mean you should have been mortal enemies.

[00:17:36] Robert: No, we're good. You know what her whole family went to Michigan State and so many people worked at Moose Jaw and CrowdRise went to Michigan State. So unless they're playing Michigan, I'll pull for state, I'm all good. I wouldn't say quite the same about Ohio State or Notre Dame, but Michigan State, I think it's based on my maintaining my own health.

It's good for me to pull for them.

[00:17:55] Adam: That's good. That's good. Okay. Well, tell me a little bit about your kids. As I mentioned, you have a sophomore in college and you have a senior in high school.

[00:18:04] Robert: Yeah, they're maniacs. I think everyone's journey with their kids is obviously entirely different. To say that we had no, and have no idea what we're doing would be an understatement, but I suppose nobody really does. Covid was challenging for us for sure when the kids were outta school, but they're terrible around us.

But they're good around other people, which I suppose is what you hope for. But it's, you know, it's fun with them. I coached all the teams. I never missed a game. So as hard as I work and I work really, really hard I was just relentless about being a good dad or am as relentless about being a good dad as I am about everything in work, for sure.

[00:18:47] Adam: What was the decision like to start a family when you were in the process of building and growing Moose Jaw and then CrowdRise?

[00:18:57] Robert: I have a brother and two sisters and had you asked me, pre-kids. I said I wanted seven kids. I loved the chaos in my house when I was growing up. It was just, you know, my mom was crazy. My dad was you know, the quiet one. But when he talked, you definitely listened. And I just love that. So,

for me I just always wanted to have that kind of madness around me. And so I love that our house was the house that all the kids hung out at, you know, that was super fun. We had ping pong table and a pool table. So I suppose that was just always something that was in me.

[00:19:35] Adam: Cool. You mentioned that you prioritized being at all the things coaching, the sports teams was that challenging when you're the CEO of multiple companies or founding a bunch of different businesses and how did you carve out that time?

[00:19:51] Robert: For sure. All of, it's hard, but I think it's just about prioritization. So my kid, he's a senior in high school. He's on the golf team. He just got a schedule. We already went through his schedule and I just put aside time for the tournaments that he is gonna be in, that he wants me to go to.

So I guess I'm very lucky that I get to do that. But I also, I think and maybe this is all for a whole nother you know, analyzing what's in my head. I'm a terrible sleeper and I used to think it was a curse and even, and went to doctors and went on medicine. And now I think. I think the exact opposite.

I really like the fact that I can stay up late and wake up early, and it doesn't really, I don't think, at least for now, impact me. So I just, I feel like I have more hours in the day. I really do. And I think that's lucky.

[00:20:42] Adam: Yeah. It's kind of your superpower in a way.

[00:20:44] Robert: I actually say when people say, what are you good at?

My answer is I'm good at not sleeping a lot. That's, I think, my literally my one skillset.

[00:20:51] Adam: Yeah. Yeah. So your older son goes to your alma mater. University of Michigan, which we've already established. My school. Your school. Also my wife's school. When your son, your older son was going through his college consideration process, was going to U of M a big topic of discussion. Did you put your thumb on the scale in any way there?

[00:21:14] Robert: You know, when you say, Hey, how do you know someone went to Michigan? It's usually because they will tell you within three seconds of talking to them. And I certainly, I think I fit in that community. I still go to all the football games. We go to all the basketball games, not all of 'em, but I've season tickets for basketball, so I'm a pretty maniacal fan and I love Ann Arbor and I love Michigan, but I actually, for both my kids.

I thought that another school would've been better for them. So I actually, my younger kids going to Colorado and I thought it would've been awesome for my older kid to go to Colorado. So I really tried to not put my thumb on the scale. Now, subconsciously, I probably did, solely because we were going to all these events together, and I'm so passionate about it, but I tried my best to not put that kind of pressure on him because Michigan is very intense. Now that he's there. I see it. And it's not just the school. Everything about it is intense. The protests were intense. The football games are intense, and so my older kid is good with that, but I don't think it's for everybody.

[00:22:17] Adam: Yeah, when I was applying to college and, probably you too, you know, we filled out paper forms. We wrote out essays by hand and mailed them in a big manila envelope with a check inside. I imagine that is not how college admissions work today. So if you were talking to a parent who is maybe has a senior in high school or a junior in a high school, or is like starting to think about that.

What would you tell parents about the modern day college admissions process?

[00:22:47] Robert: Well, it is still a pain. And my kid, I mean, at one point he was just like, I am not doing this. I'm gonna live off the land. Right. I'm just, I'm done. I'll figure it out. So all of it's hard, right? He wouldn't listen to us. This is my younger kid. So we hired a tutor to help him with the essays.

I don't know if she quite describes herself as a tutor, but someone to help because he just wouldn't listen to us. So the process is significantly easier because there's so much more technology now. But it's still, it's a pain. You know, we really tried to, with both our kids not put pressure to go to Michigan.

And I think we did. I don't know. I think we did a good job with that, but for anyone going through it, and I know because I've talked to all the, you know, the other parents, nothing about it is fun. That's for sure.

[00:23:31] Adam: I've heard I haven't lived this myself, that there's now like a universal application There is. which, gosh, it almost it's like AI exploding the amount of content written on the internet. Like if you can press a button and swipe a credit card and apply to all these different places it sort of really opens up the aperture for what's possible because the level of work per school may not be as extreme as it was for us.

[00:23:56] Robert: That's for sure true. However, you still have to do individual essays per school, and that's the hardest part, right? Checking the boxes in the form is the easy part. Doing the thinking is obviously more challenging and that you still have to do individually.

[00:24:10] Adam: Yeah. And then you mentioned originally you didn't think, you know, Michigan was the right fit for either one of your kids. And then obviously they've come to their own conclusions on what is the right fit. But how did you think through helping your kids find the right fit and like the kind of questions and considerations that you wanted them to go through?

[00:24:29] Robert: The short answer is, I don't know, it was a very iterative process. But we went to visit Colorado with both our kids. I mean, my younger kid, One minute into the tour, he said I don't need to be able to go on the tour anymore. And I said, why? What's wrong? He said, I wanna go here.

Right. So that was pretty lucky. And we went to Indiana. I will actually say when we went to Indiana, we were on the tour. This was a few months ago. And the tour started and it was my wife and my kid, and me and the person leading the tour said. Anyone have any questions?

And one of the kids taking the tour said, do you all have a Panda Express on campus? Which I just, so that threw me, okay. That threw me, I got the giggles. I'm a grownup, right? With all these kids going, I literally got the giggles and I couldn't stop. I mean, my wife was saying to me, what is wrong with you?

You're 50 and you, and there's 17 year olds here, and you can't hang I was like hiding behind a tree I couldnt, I couldn't do it. But anyway, we really, we just tried to get as much information as possible and just tried to narrow down the places where they could obviously be most successful.

[00:25:39] Adam: Yeah. And was Panda Express on the list of criteria or,

[00:25:42] Robert: That not for us, it was for them.

There, there was a Panda express on campus, just to be clear.

[00:25:47] Adam: oh, good. Good. It's good to know that there's a stack ranking of, fast food options and Panda express is close to the top.

[00:25:52] Robert: Yeah. I don't know why that threw me, but I just couldn't hang anymore.

[00:25:57] Adam: I probably would not have made it either. I think I would've just been like, that's it. My and mic dropped and walked out. So, I remember at the U of M tour I went with my dad and you know James Earl Jones is a graduate of the University of Michigan and he voices over the sizzle reel and he's doing the thing and I look over my dad and he is crying. Just like the memories at James Earl Jones and there's like flyovers into the stadium and stuff, and I'm like, oh wow. That's pretty intense.

[00:26:29] Robert: Yeah, that's fun. I mean, the idea that I get to go to the hoops games and take my kid is really, you know, that's, that's super lucky.

[00:26:36] Adam: Now, what will you do when U of M plays Colorado in a game? Who will get your love?

[00:26:42] Robert: Michigan. Not, it's an easy one.

[00:26:45] Adam: You've already pre-sold this with your senior in high school.

[00:26:47] Robert: That's, there's no question. That'll be Michigan. Yeah.

[00:26:50] Adam: Okay. If you could rewind the clock to a time right before your oldest son was born and you bumped into younger Robert, what advice would you give the younger version of yourself about starting a family or raising kids?

[00:27:03] Robert: That's a tough question. I don't know. You know, I think we really both at work and at home, try to not believe our own bullshit and think we have any idea what we're doing. I've never read a business book. I've never read a parenting book, and we're just trying to figure everything out as quickly and efficiently as possible. I think maybe if I had to answer the question, I just, did you see the movie Dazed and Confused?

[00:27:31] Adam: I sure did.

[00:27:32] Robert: Okay. So, you know, at the end of the movie, they're on the football field and I think the character is Dawson, one of the, he says, I wanna have as much fun as I can while I'm in this place.

Right? And I sort of had that same attitude with my kids, right? Like, let's just have as much fun as we possibly can while we're here. And maybe I took that to the extreme a little bit, but that might be the only one. If I had to think of something.

[00:27:57] Adam: Alright. The Dazed and Confused advice. I

[00:28:00] Robert: Yeah, Exactly. Exactly. For better or worse,

[00:28:03] Adam: For better or for worse, would you tell yourself to ignore any advice that was dispensed to you?

[00:28:09] Robert: This won't answer the question, but I'll tell you. It's a, I think a good story regardless. I remember. No, it's probably an inappropriate story. I remember we, we used to go to this camp in northern Michigan.

So my wife went to a camp in Cal Kaska, Michigan her whole life. And then my kids went there and they had a family camp and my kids would ask me for everything. Like I was the go-to, and I remember one of the older dads said to me, Hey man, you've got it all wrong. I don't know what you're doing, but you are screwing this up entirely.

They cannot ask for only you, they have to ask for you and your wife. So whatever you're doing, you're doing it wrong. And I remember that and I was like, oh, that's a good point. I'm gonna get myself pigeonholed here for life. And so I don't know if I quite solved it, but I remember getting that advice and thinking at least it was, at least it was funny or notable.

[00:29:00] Adam: I, I would agree. In my household, it's sort of the other way around. My wife and I will be sitting in the same room and the kids will go immediately to her and she's like, there's another adult here who could just as easily help you. So I'm like, Hey, kids, I'm over here.

Don't forget about me.

[00:29:15] Robert: That’s funny, well I’ll tell you, my younger kid went to my wife's parents went to Florida for a couple months and he went to visit them and he came home and said, and sort of an announcement, he said to my wife and me, he said, just so you know. I'm good. I'm done with you.

So that was a, an announcement coming home from the trip, getting off the plane and coming home that he declared he is ready to move on.

[00:29:38] Adam: Okay. Apparently a trip to Florida with the grandparents is all it took.

[00:29:42] Robert: That’s right. Exactly.

[00:29:44] Adam: So we're mere months away from your younger son going off to college, and then you'll be an empty nester at that point. You just have the dog and your wife. Are you doing anything special to prepare yourself for the empty nester lifestyle or you're just working more?

[00:30:01] Robert: No, I'm, I don't think we're doing anything special. I'm, I mean, I'm not looking forward to it. I, again, I like the chaos of everybody around. So it'll be an adjustment, but we're not really preparing. We've traveled with the family and by ourselves over the summer, and my wife said, you know, I'm gonna be way too stressed to do any of that.

So we're sticking around. So I think in her mind, there's some preparation, but nothing beyond that. Nothing papered really.

[00:30:25] Adam: Okay. And will you be buying a bunch of Colorado gear to put next to your Michigan gear in your closet?

Robert: I already have.

Adam: Yeah. Okay, good. good.

[00:30:33] Robert: I'm a Dion fan. It will be fun.

[00:30:35] Adam: All right. Okay. So technology is a really big part of all of your businesses, and I'm really curious to hear as someone who's built a career on technology and founding tech companies how do you think about or how did you think about technology usage in your own household, especially as your kids were going through the teenage years with cell phones and things like that?

[00:30:58] Robert: Now that's a great question. And I suppose if I could do something differently maybe it would be around the phone. I think the phone has ruined everything. I think it's made kids less resourceful. Whether it's to our team at work or our kids, I think it's more important to be resourceful than smart.

And I think it's messed up everything we were the last when they were in, whatever, it was, sixth grade and everyone had a phone. We were sort of the last to dig in for both of our kids. But eventually, whether it's the phone or social media in the phone, it's how they connect. So you sort of, have to dig in and we did everything that, sort of all the recommendations to control it as best we can. So we had time limits on the apps and time limits on the phone. And not using it during dinner and not using it after a certain time at night, but it, as they get older, it is really hard to control that, particularly because that's how they communicate.

I will say that we were very against the video games also sort of maniacally against it because I think I have such an addictive personality, and I knew as a kid that if I got hooked on video games, I would never stop. And so I never did. And I was worried about that for our own kids, and we were really good about that until Covid.

And then when Covid came and they couldn't see each other in real life, video games became a blessing because that's how they interacted. So I think. While we were very anti video games prior to Covid, when Covid happened they were a savior because they would play together, my kids are really into sports, so they weren't playing the shoot 'em up games, which are awful.

They were playing NBA 2K and Madden and PGA and so I thought that was really good for us. But the phone's a fucking disaster. It's ruined everything.

[00:32:41] Adam: And what do you think about, you know, I think the relationship with social media between younger boys, teenage boys and teenage girls, very different. How they approach it and leverage it. But what do you think about the relationship? You know, you kind of mentioned it as a necessary evil in some ways. It's how kids connect, but what are your thoughts on social media and how big of a part of their lives does this become quickly?

[00:33:07] Robert: I think it's all awful. I mean, I have never been on social media, so I've never been on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, none of them. And I, you know, when you just see someone scrolling like an idiot, I just, I feel bad for them. And I have bribed both my kids to get off TikTok. Which has worked, but the, they're on Instagram instead.

So I think it's just choosing your poison, I suppose. But I also think. You know, they're super into sports. So when I go and look at what they're scrolling at, it's looking at highlights from the TPC this past weekend, not, you know, the most idiotic stuff you could ever see. I'm sure there's some of that also, I don't wanna pretend I'm blind to that, but it's mostly you know, Kobe highlights more than, you know, looking at some terribly inappropriate content all day long.

[00:34:00] Adam: Yeah. let's say your youngest son graduates from college which he, you know, will and they come to you and they're like, dad, we're gonna start a business together, just like you did with your brother. Would you have any advice for them?

[00:34:13] Robert: I, I think that would be awesome. But it is so hard that I feel like it's a life not a job. So you really have to be ready to dig in deeply. And so my cousin, for example, he had an amazing job for Google and he wanted to start this company. It's called Mighty and MIGHT Be Mighty is the site.

So I'll give him a plug. It's like you remember the iPod Shuffle?

[00:34:37] Adam: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:37] Robert: It's that. But for Spotify it's really cool. But I said if, on a scale of, yeah, outta 10, how hard this is gonna be. It's gonna be in a hundred right? And he sort of didn't believe me. And it is right. It's that hard. So I feel like you really have to be ready to take that leap.

And you can't fuck around. I mean, I don't do, I don't play golf. I don't ha, I don't do anything. I have no hobbies. So I am literally either exercising or working or with my kids. And usually if I'm exercising, I'm also working. So I wish me upon no one, yet, I think that's what it takes.

Right?

[00:35:13] Adam: Yeah, yeah, totally. I had somebody else on the show and asked him sort of a similar question about balance and things like that, and he is like, you know, I don't know how anybody does this and strikes a perfect balance. It's just not…possible. You've gotta pick and choose. You have to prioritize what you can actually do and say goodbye to some things.

And so.

[00:35:35] Robert: Definitely. Yeah. I think it’s

[00:35:37] Adam: That’s been your learning.

[00:35:39] Robert: The founder of Nvidia said, someone said to him something like, you know, if you could do this again, what would you do differently? He's like, I would never do this again, you know, was his answer. You know, it's just, it's too all consuming.

[00:35:51] Adam: Yep. Yep. Well that sounds like a good place for us to take a pause before lightning round. So I wanted to ask you to end with how can people follow along or be helpful to you in any way?

[00:36:06] Robert: If you know anyone who's on a board and they wanna check out Zeck go to Zeck.app. Pull from Michigan in the tournament. You know, I don't love that we got a five seed, but hopefully that'll inspire us. But I think that's, I think that's it.

[00:36:19] Adam: Yeah, Michigan got a bum draw in the tournament. I don't know. U-U-C-S-D might be our downfall. We shall see.

[00:36:25] Robert: Yeah, hopefully uh, we'll be all right.

[00:36:27] Adam: Okay, let's go to our lightning round. Very simple rules. I ask you a question, you say the first thing that comes to mind, and that's it. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you've ever purchased?

[00:36:42] Robert: Animal crackers.

[00:36:45] Adam: What is the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased?

[00:36:49] Robert: Everything in our basement, I suppose.

[00:36:52] Adam: Awesome, awesome. What is the weirdest thing that you've ever found in one of your son's pockets or in the washing machine?

[00:37:00] Robert: I mean, I don't know if this is weird, but I've definitely found a pen in my kids' pocket, that's for sure.

[00:37:06] Adam: Hopefully that didn't make its way into the washing machine, that could have been disastrous.

[00:37:09] Robert: Right, exactly.

[00:37:11] Adam: True or false, there is only one correct way to load the dishwasher.

[00:37:15] Robert: Yes, true.

[00:37:16] Adam: True. Okay. And would your wife agree with your method for loading the dishwasher?

[00:37:20] Robert: Absolutely not.

No, I am, Can I tell, can you tell a story during the lightning round?

[00:37:25] Adam: Oh, you sure can. If you're inspired to.

[00:37:27] Robert: Yeah. So, two friends and I, we were a dishwashers at a camp one summer and halfway through the summer during visiting day the owner of the camp came to us and he said, Hey guys, you haven't reordered dish soap yet, and we were like dish soap. It never even crossed our minds to put soap in this industrialized dishwasher. So anyone who was at that camp for the first month they were eating off mostly just hot, dirty dishes the whole time. Yeah. Literally never crossed our mind.

[00:38:00] Adam: Hopefully the water was hot enough to sanitize those dishes, but maybe not, so. All right. What is the ideal day with your kids involve?

[00:38:09] Robert: Going to a Michigan game for sure. Tailgating, you know, the whole thing. Starting early, coming home late, gets no more fun.

[00:38:16] Adam: Okay. If your kids had to describe you in a single word, what would it be?

[00:38:21] Robert: Relentless.

[00:38:22] Adam: Love that one. What is the most frustrating thing that has ever happened to you as a dad?

[00:38:28] Robert: Covid was frustrating. Everything about them being home and not being able to socialize at the ages they were at was challenging for sure. Not just for us, for everyone and for everyone around us.

[00:38:39] Adam: Everybody was probably crawling up the walls, I imagine, so.

[00:38:42] Robert: Yeah. Yes, we tried to make the best of it, but that was, that was not fun.

[00:38:45] Adam: What is your go-to dad wardrobe?

[00:38:48] Robert: You are looking at it. I wake up and I'm in my PJ's pretty much all day and night.

[00:38:53] Adam: I also don't think I've ever seen a photo of you not wearing a hat.

[00:38:56] Robert: That's, that's right. There we go. There you go.

[00:38:59] Robert: There's the reveal, right? It's like Jaws at the end of the movie.

[00:39:03] Adam: I love that I may have the only image of you now on the internet with, without a hat on. So, how many dad jokes do you tell on average in a given day?

[00:39:13] Robert: Zero.

[00:39:14] Adam: Wow. Wow. Can you even be a dad if you don't tell a dad joke? I don't know. What is the most embarrassing thing that you've ever done in front of your kids?

As reported by them.

[00:39:25] Robert: A friend of mine, his Instagram is I don't know exactly what it is, but he has this idea of, having a chestie, which is, he takes his shirt off and gets pictures wherever he can go as much as possible. And because the kids despise that whenever we're together, I also will do a chestie.

So that does not get rave reviews.

[00:39:48] Adam: That's great. And I can sense why the, there is embarrassment. I

[00:39:54] Robert: His daughter is the most mortified.

[00:39:57] Adam: Oh, I imagine what is your favorite kid's movie?

[00:40:02] Robert: That's a great question. Would Avatar count as a kid's movie? Does that count or no? Are you looking like cartoon? 

Adam: I think it’s PG-13 so I don't know.

Robert: You’re looking Cartoon,

[00:40:11] Adam: I ean, Avatar could count.

[00:40:13] Robert: I mean star, all the Star Wars.

[00:40:14] Adam: Okay. Okay.

[00:40:16] Robert: But I, I don't know if that quite counts. If I need a cartoon, I like the Monsters. You know, that whole series that, that's a good one.

I mean, no, no, they're all so good now,

[00:40:24] Adam: Yeah. What was the first nostalgic movie that you forced one of your sons to watch with you?

[00:40:30] Robert: Godfather.

[00:40:31] Adam: Okay. Good. In your household, how long can a piece of food sit on the floor and you will still eat it?

[00:40:38] Robert: A few minutes. I'm alright with that. Our floors are clean enough. I'm good. Maybe Maybe longer. I have no issue with that.

[00:40:45] Adam: Despite the presence of the dog too?

[00:40:48] Robert: Yeah, no, we're good.

[00:40:49] Adam: Okay. How often do you tell your sons back in my day stories?

[00:40:54] Robert: Every day.

[00:40:55] Adam: Yeah. Does the one that goes to U of M get this more than the other one?

[00:40:59] Robert: No, they both, they definitely both get it. They for sure both. I mean, when Michigan won the other night when Donaldson went from one, you know, one baseline to the other, I immediately sent them a video of Tius Edney, who was the UCLA guard, I don't know how many, 20 years ago, did the same thing.

So that was, that was a recent example.

[00:41:17] Adam: There you go. Okay, final question and then I have a, and then I actually have a bonus one for you. What is your take on minivans?

[00:41:27] Robert: I'm good with minivan. We had a minivan when I was a kid. I love it. The more kids piling into a car, the better.

[00:41:32] Adam: All right. This kind of goes with the theme here in your household. Okay. Because you told me that you don't tell any dad jokes. And because we are in proximity to St. Patrick's Day, I have a St. Patrick's Day themed dad joke for you. Do you have time for it?

[00:41:49] Robert: I’m ready. Of course.

[00:41:50] Adam: Okay. Why is it a bad idea to iron your four-leaf clover?

[00:41:57] Robert: Why? I’m ready.

[00:41:59] Adam: Well, because you shouldn't press your luck.

[00:42:02] Robert: Oh, I love it. Brilliant.

[00:42:05] Adam: There we go. 

I've broken the internet with that joke. Well, Robert, it has been a pleasure chatting with you today. I'm so glad I got to hear a little about Moose Jaw history and Edward Norton and your family of course. And a special thanks to my college friend Becky, who introduced the two of us completely randomly.

[00:42:25] Robert: So smart. She is a badass.

[00:42:28] Adam: I would agree with that. I would agree. So thanks very much Robert, and I wish you and your family all the best. And best of luck to your son as he rides off to Colorado.

[00:42:39] Robert: All right. Thank you so much, go bufs.

[00:42:43] Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Robert Wolfe. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify.

It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Harron. If you're a startup founder, leader, or just want to get better at your job in tech as a growth practitioner, product manager or executive, you can join a community of over 11,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth and product by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com.

Thanks for listening. See you next week.