Does Parenting Have To Be So High Stakes? | Lane Shackleton (father of 3, CPO at Coda)

Lane: There's a very natural and like human impulse to solve every problem. And I think that like, especially for people who are like problem solvers at work, you know, like we all day, every day we're like, okay, cool.

Got that. Put that on a task list that goes over here. I'm going to solve this problem. I'm going to help everyone prioritize problems if needed. You know, I think there's just like this natural, this is what I do kind of like mentality, that you bring from the office to parenting that is actually like not helpful.

Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. In today's conversation, I sat down with Lane Shackleton. Lane is the chief product officer of Coda, where he has worked for over eight years.

Prior to that, he had a nine plus year career at Google and YouTube as a product manager and leader. He's a loving husband and the father of three kids. In our conversation today, we covered a ton of great topics, from the idea of setting up quests for your kids to help motivate them and teach lessons, to lowering the pressure on high stakes parenting and recognizing that most challenges with kids can be solved with two, simple actions.

We also talked about the different types of overwhelm that you can experience as a parent and as a professional and why parenting overwhelm can be so much harder to work through. We talked about the difference between leveraging technology as a builder versus as a passive consumer and what he wants for his kids.

If you've ever wondered what it's like to balance being an executive with coaching a baseball team full of nine year olds, then this episode is for you.

Adam: I would like to welcome Lane Shackleton to the Startup Dad podcast. Lane, it is a pleasure having you here today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Lane: Thanks so much for having me. Great to be here.

Adam: So, Lane, you and I have known each other professionally for a while, we've run in somewhat similar circles. But with some additional sleuthing, I've discovered two things about you. One is that you have essentially done two things in life. Besides being a dad, which is why you're on the show. That first thing is make and sell wine.

You've done that. And then the second thing is make and sell software. So tell me about those two different sides of you. And how did you get into tech in the first place? Because I don't think that's what you went to school to get into.

Lane: Yeah, not at all. I've never heard it framed that way, but maybe those are the two sides of me. The wine thing, I guess maybe the quick backstory on my career, I started my career definitely far outside of technology. I was a mountain guide up in Alaska teaching people rock ice and alpine climbing.

That was a super fun summer job. I wasn't the best mountain guide, you know, but it was a great way to learn. And then I moved to the Bay Area around the same time my friend Ryan moved to the Bay Area and he had just come back from working at Yellowtail in Australia and he was working at this really fancy winery up in Napa.

And we were pretty entrepreneurial kids. We were like 23 years old. And so we you know, decided to make a wine brand very long story short, we made a ton of different mistakes along the way and had a ton of fun, really. Like it was just inventing every day. It was like inventing, figuring things out.

You know, where are we going to get the wine? How are we going to do this? How are we going to bottle it? What's the label look like? Who's going to sell it? You know, all those things. And the thing that I took away from that experience was, you know, a physical product is so gratifying. Like it's so gratifying to like show up to a party and be like, this is the wine.

Like, what do you think? Right. And like, that's in such stark contrast to today when it's like millions of users out on, you know, and you're like looking at a dashboard and so, you know, before this, we were talking about like loving talking to customers. I still love talking to customers for that reason, because

I'd rather have the like human connection and so maybe that's the thread that like ties those things together. But yeah, for the last, you know, 15 years since then have been building, you know, various forms of software at YouTube and Google and then Coda

Adam: Awesome. Well, I'm a big fan of what you all are building at Coda. So keep doing great work there. And maybe at some point we'll go back and have some of your wine. I'm sure it still exists. You probably have some hidden away. So cool so speaking of going on adventures, we're going to talk about your kids in a little bit and your life growing up.

But the first thing that I wanted to ask you about, I want to just jump right into one of the topics that you told me about, which is something that you've been working on recently, which is this idea of quests with your kids. And so when I think of a quest, I think of like, you know, like Dungeons and Dragons style, like we're going on a quest.

It's going to be amazing. We're going to go rescue the rune from this, you know, cave or something. What does it mean to do quests with your kids. And why do you do them?

Lane: Yeah, it's sort of just a made up concept. I think it's like mostly in my head and starting to become a real thing in the real world. I guess the background story here is that my, son wanted really nice, expensive batting gloves, like where we play a ton of baseball. And I grew up playing baseball, played my whole life.

And you know, it was kind of between his birthday and Christmas. And so, you know, we were talking about this before, it's kind of like this latent period where it's like, I don't really want to just buy you stuff. That, doesn't feel right. That feels like a, actually a recipe for having kind of like an entitled child.

so I think that it was just kind of like coming up with different ways to think about like, how do I teach, you know, something with this motivation? Like it is clearly super motivated, these things, Bruce Bolts you have a kid that plays baseball, they're pretty cool. They're like, you know, nice leather batting, batting gloves.

I wish they were around when I was a kid. And so, I basically just came up with, you know, it's not a novel concept but said like, all right, you have to do some sustained bit of effort for like, Not like, you know, two days, but like 10 days. Right. And so, the first quest he did was 10 days of 500 throws against the bounce back net. They're called like short hops in baseball where you like pick it off one hop. We had been talking about working on that skill already. And then he was also you know, he wanted to improve. So there was kind of like this dual motivation, like you wanted the thing.

But he also like, you know, knew that he needed to practice this other thing. And so it was kind of like, oh, we can kill two birds with one stone here. And so he ended up doing that. And the cool part was like how much he leaned in. Like it was crazy. I was not expecting it, you know, at first I was like, all right so 500 of these short hops for 10 days. Like it kind of teaches you this idea that like, I can kind of improve at anything if I just like practice it enough for a sustained amount of time. And so, we'd get home from like a game or practice or whatever. And he'd be like, oh, I got to go do my like 500 and I'd be like, it's going to take you like 30 minutes.

Like, are you sure you want to do that right now? He's like, definitely doing it, you know? So it's like…

Adam: I got those Bruce Bolts waiting for me on the other side!

Lane: Yeah, exactly. I've got this awesome reward. So I think as soon as I saw this idea that like, you know, sustained effort plus like the right motivation plus like, hopefully, you know, who knows if this actually teaches the lesson that I'm trying to imbue here, but I thought it was like kind of a fun way to get that level of engagement on something that you know, previously, if you draw a contrast between that and like how that might have gone, my options are like, buy him the nice batting gloves, you know, teach him something different. Make him wait a really long time. He's just like, kind of feels bad. Or, you know, like, some version of, learning from it.

So I, think it's like kind of an interesting experiment. And now my other son is doing these cause he's got things, you know, he's motivated about so it's a fun little way to sidestep this issue that I think a lot of parents have that I, you know, we've had for many years, which is like, I just don't want to buy, you know, everything for my kids and like teach them that, listen, that you just get everything handed to you.

Adam: Yeah. And I think, like you mentioned, you know, hopefully this kind of teaches in the lesson you'll see, right. If he learns the lesson, but I think like a couple of things are going to happen here, one, he did his, 500 times 10, which is, you know, 5, 000 bounce backs. And he is going to get his Bruce Bolts or he got them already.

And two, he's going to get better at baseball. There's no way that you can do 5, 000 of those and not improve in some, probably significant way as a young kid. And so like. It's a good lesson to be like, oh, by the way, there's another reward here that you got, which isn't the tangible thing.

It's that you're now better at doing these. So next time somebody hits a one hopper to you, like you're going to feel that pretty quickly. And you know, maybe it's like a little bit pushes a little bit more of the intrinsic motivation.

Lane: That feedback loop was almost immediate, by the way, like, you know, on day 15, it was like, boy you tended to like, not have any problem with that short hop when you were catching, like, is that, do you feel that? Or is it just me? And he's like, oh, no, like, I'm definitely, and so it's like, it's cool to see that there is an immediate feedback loop there.

Which is like the opposite of most thing in parenting. Right. It's like, we'll wait 10 years to figure out whether we like screwed this kid up or whether they're, you know, so anyway.

Adam: Yeah, exactly. It's the venture investing cycle of raising children, which is like, ah, maybe, maybe this is a thing. I don't know. We'll find out in awhile if it returns the fun to the family. So I, you know, you mentioned a couple of kids, but before we get into your family, I want to hit the way back machine here and ask you what was life like growing up for you?

Where'd you grow up? What was your family life like?

Lane: I had a great upbringing in general. I grew up in Atlanta. You know the, I think the South is a great place to raise a family. Atlanta was like a good mix of, you know, in the city, but also spent an bsurd amount of time in rural places, you know, playing sports of various kinds.

And had, you know, super loving, amazing parents and they've turned into amazing grandparents. I have a brother who's six years older than me who's awesome and I think the age difference is just really different than my kids. My kids are like three years apart and, you know six years apart like he was much older and in some ways and it had been through a lot of things that like I know, hadn't. And so I think That was great in some ways. Like it wasn't competitive in any way. Like we were two really different people and to this day are two really different people and that's great.

You know, like that actually, I think worked quite well in terms of a family unit. And yeah, that's pretty classic upbringing.

Adam: And you, I think I saw in your background, you were a collegiate baseball player. Is that right? So that speaks a little bit to the baseball gene in your family. How did your oldest son get into baseball? Was that like, dad says? I should do this. Or was that just the thing?

Like baseball is huge here where I live, which is not too far from you, but it's like borderline obsession with some of these parents. So, and I know you're a coach and everything like that, but yeah. How'd your kid get into baseball?

Lane: Yeah. I mean, I definitely think it's very much part of the town. So I live in Mill Valley, California and like, you know, just to give you a small window into this. On opening day in Mill Valley the town basically closes and there's a parade through town of every Little League team, you know, 700 kids parading through town.

They end at the field where the JV and high school baseball teams high five them in a tunnel. There are bagpipers playing, you know, full steam. And then there's like a ceremony. So like, you know, I don't know how we picked this place, but like, it seems, you know, like some weird bit of serendipity led my love of this game and my kid's love of this game to this place.

So, I think it was like pretty natural in that respect. He loves tennis. He loves basketball. He loves all these other sports. And I think I'm just a big fan of like what you learn from team sports in general. And so I think that there's just a lot of lessons that I think just cannot be taught in a school like environment that I learned from team sports.

And so I'm happy for him to play whatever sport he wants and, you know, he plays them all and, you know, he's like better at some than others and I don't really care. But I do think that some weird bit of serendipity led us to where we are.

Adam: That's wild. I don't know that we have a parade here, but we do have like a huge opening day thing, photographs, team pictures, like the whole center of town is taken over by all these different teams and stuff. So. It's wild. I did not have this type of a baseball experience growing up.

Lane: Celebrate the kids.

Adam: Yeah.

Speaking of kids, you have three kids. We've glossed over that topic, but you have three and you have a partner. Tell me about your family now. How'd you meet your wife? And tell me a little bit about your kids.

Lane: I met Meg my wife. We were both working at Google. She was working in the Boston office for Google. This is a long time ago. So I started at Google approving ads, you know, on google.com before that was like handled by machine learning and, outsourced to other places. And we were both working in some version of like the sales org.

So I used to go to Boston a lot to give trainings about like what we were doing at YouTube is right after I moved over to YouTube post acquisition back in like 2008 ish. you know, over a fateful Google latte, met Meg and would make any excuse to go to the Boston office after that.

And the rest is history. She's an amazing mom and an entrepreneur. I think she left Google after two or three years and ran her own jewelry business for 10 years, had a few stores here in San Francisco. And then recently closed that to do an interior design business, which is you know, in a year has gone gangbusters, which is awesome.

We have three kiddos. We have Mara, who's our youngest who's three. We have Cal who's six just turned seven actually a couple of days ago. And then Tate who's nine.

Adam: That's awesome. And did you always know with Meg that the two of you were going to have a family? I mean, you only have one brother. Sometimes people come from huge families and they're like, this is what I know. I must get to work. But I don't know if Meg comes from a big family or the two of you had a conversation about this beforehand, but what was that decision like?

Lane: I mean, I think we, we both wanted a family for sure. I think there was like a short debate about two versus three. That debate was settled very quickly when we had two boys. Uh, and Meg comes from, you know, a family of three girls. And so there was really no chance that we were going to stop at two at that point. So now we have three and it's wonderful and I can't imagine life without our little Mara. She's a total ray of sunshine and you know, already twice as smart as the boys. So yeah a pretty natural, you know, decision.

Adam: That is awesome. And what is the earliest memory that you have of becoming a dad?

Lane: There's this hospital in San Francisco called CPMC where a lot of babies are born.

Adam: It is, it is the baby factory of San Francisco. Yes.

Lane: I feel like everybody I talk to in the Bay area is like, oh yeah. Like, were you in this room or this room?

Adam: We had our kids in the baby factory of the East Bay, which is Alta Bates. So no, no different.

Lane: Same concept. Yeah, it's funny when you ask this question, like the first thing that I thought of was this, you know, Irish nurse who, you know, we're like 48 hours into what is every parent's first, you know, 72 hours of like pure chaos and trying to like make sense of the new world.

And I just like, never forget her, like, teaching me for like the seventh time how to make sure that like the diaper stays on and like the like swaddle stays on and all this stuff and I was just like so sleep deprived and so out of it but like the accent I think is like what stuck with me, but yeah, so anyway, that's my earliest and like the, you know, Tate's like screaming his head off.

And so I think that like, there's some version of like her being like, get your shit together and me being like, wow, this is, I'm not equipped yet to handle this, you know, but like, I'll adjust, so.

Adam: You seem like you've made a full recovery across, across three kids. So, I believe in you. I believe in you. Yeah, this is great. So speaking of which this like feeling of overwhelm, you mentioned that was kind of a somewhat of what you felt at various stages and having three different kids.

So, but you also mentioned you different levels of control of this feeling. So what was that emotion of overwhelm like?

Lane: You know, if you think about like the benchmarks of times that you've been overwhelmed, right? Pre parent times that you've been overwhelmed, it's generally like, and, you know, a, tough personal situation or a tough, you know, work situation or like a tough kind of like, you know, if you play like high level sports, I get tough kind of like sports situation.

And in all of those instances, there is like a degree of feeling of control. Right. And like, I think humans generally crave control. And in a tough work situation you go talk to this person and you go talk to that person and you consult and you kind of like make a plan and blah, blah, blah.

And I think the feeling of being overwhelmed as a parent is one of you know, we're sort of past the days of like tribal parenting, right? Like if you think about like this in an evolutionary context, like 300 years ago, there would be like 20 people just like around you, literally like living with you in some cases. and then contrast like that experience with like being in a box in CPMC and then like going to your other box alone, and you're like the contrast is so stark. And so the feeling of being overwhelmed and not having much sort of control in the sense that like, who, who do I make a plan with?

And so like, I think that part of that is very natural for mothers, to have that level of conversation of like, oh, like what's the sleep schedule and like, you know, just sort of figuring out the mechanics of this thing. And. I think that's like very unnatural for fathers, like in general, it just doesn't happen, you know, like, and maybe I'm just not, I don't have, you know, the right friends or whatever, but like, that's just not a topic that, that often comes up unless you're like really curious and proactively seeking out that knowledge, which like, I think to some degree I was, but not nearly enough, and so I think it's just a different feeling of, you know, overwhelmed than when you can be like, oh, I'm very physically tired in the sport thing.

I can like make a plan for how to do that. Or I've got this like tough personal thing. And like, you know, this is kind of the archetype for that. And, you know, there probably are, you know, resources like this podcast, actually, that would have gone a long way in that respect. So, yeah, I appreciate what you're doing here.

Adam: Thank you. It is one of the reasons that I started this because there just aren't enough of those conversations happening between dads, between and amongst dads. So on that note, what are the things that you've discovered as kind of the most surprising aspects of being a dad?

Lane: I say this to like new parents a lot, but I think the thing that you realize is that before you become a parent, all anyone wants to talk to you about is like, how much your life's going to change, how you're not going to sleep, you know, like kiss your hobbies goodbye and all this stuff.

And like, to be honest, I got like pretty tired of that talk. Like I was like, okay, like I get it. I'll adapt. Like humans have been doing this a long time. But the thing that people like, I think can't articulate is like how good it can get right or like how interesting or like, what the feeling of, you know, for lack of a better term, like love, you know, like it feels like, you know what I mean?

And so I think that that was the most, I think in some ways surprising to me because like, I was just conditioned with like all this like rhetoric of this is all the bad stuff. And then like, you know, I think after you get your bearings, you know, a month, two months, nine months, two years in, you start to realize like there's all these completely magical parts if I just like tune my attention to you know, to this new human. So that was like one thing that comes to mind is like surprising. I think maybe like further down the journey I think you have this notion that kids should operate like little adults, and that is like a really, I have found a really bad trap to find yourself in. And alternatively, like if you flip that sort of on its head, like I think that the right answer, at least for me, is that we should probably all be more kidlike, you know, like we all take things really seriously, and myself included, and so I think upon time and reflection and, you know, nine years later, like, I think that's like a surprising, but different takeaway that I have to like remind myself of, you know, when a kid wants you to follow a thread of imagination.

You know, Mara right now, like, wants to play baby and like, I'm the baby. And so I'm like, what does a baby do? And then it's like, wait a minute, like get into it, you know? So I think that those instances are good teachers for people that are like generally, you know, if you're in tech and you're like, you know, leading teams or whatever, you're like pretty like in it every day.

So I think it's like very helpful to get out of it.

Adam: That's awesome advice. You know, somebody else on the show has talked about this idea that everyone goes kind of inundates you with the bad as it's happening. And it's like, I've never thought about it is because it's hard to kind of put into words the good. But I also had Matt Greenberg on the podcast a long time ago.

And he talked about like, there is no law of conservation of love. Like, he's just like, there's just more that's made with every kid. And so, that was probably the closest thing to putting that into words that I've ever heard, which I thought was a good concept, but I love that and I love the concept of being just aspiring to be more kidlike and kind of recognizing that, like, they're not fully formed adults when they come out, like, and there's a lot of exploration that they need to do.

And, you know, it's taken me 40 plus years to be the way that I am. And I still can't sit quietly in a restaurant. So, so there's actually a really nice segue into another thing that you kind of brought up, which is that like a lot of times, and this is probably related to thinking about kids as like little adults in the making or trying not to, is that everything in parenting feels like it's super high stakes all the time. I mean, I don't think being in the Bay Area helps us that much. Like it's a high pressure environment. You got, you know, like two of the best universities in the world within like 45 minutes of one another, a lot of very well educated people, a lot of high performing folks, a lot of wealth, things like that.

But not everything is high stakes in parenting. And so what has been your experience with like trying to internalize that and reminding yourself of that?

Lane: It's exceptionally hard because like humans in groups tend to like feed off each other. So like that could be feeding off each other. And, you know, like my recent thing is like, I'm coaching a travel ball team and like. Travel ball teams can really like feed off each other.

It's like, are you this level or this level? And like, are we recruiting and like, blah, blah, blah. And like, at some point you have to be like we're talking about nine year old baseball. Like we're, are we all serious right now? So I think that applies to preschool. And soon, you know, I'm waxing poetically here, but like, you know, college is right on the horizon and all these other things that are real challenges. But I think that the learning here for me has been that most times, regardless of the outcome, it's going to be okay. And as long as you're centered on the kid's well being and like love for them, you know, like, a few days ago, my middle son just had like a really crappy sort of day for various reasons.

And like the best thing I could do was not to like, try to go solve that for him, you know, like with his friends or, you know, in that case it was like to give him a big hug and give him my full attention for 30 minutes, you know, and like, that feels like a really long time when you're in a family of three and like, you know, you're getting little time slices of your parents attention.

I don't know, that feels like one way to try to lower the stakes. I think the other thing is like your partner can be really helpful here. And I, Meg and I try to do this as much as we possibly can of like, let's keep some perspective on what we're talking about here. You know, if we're talking about preschool admissions or we're talking about travel baseball, or we're talking about, you know, whether they forgot their homework, that was like last week's thing. It's always like, just let's like, try to take the temperature down because when the temperature goes up.

In a family of three, at least in my experience, the wheels like start to shake and everything gets real tense, real fast. And I think the, you know, I'm no parenting expert, but like, I think the downstream impact of that is like raising kids that are, you know a little more anxious than they need to be or a little bit more you know high strung than maybe is required, to lead like a happy and kind and you know fulfilling life, which I think is like ultimately the goal of like, you know shepherding a kid through life.

Adam: Yeah. And so you mentioned it's part of taking the temperature down, you just told a little quick story there about last week in your son or a few days ago when your son Cal had a hard day and you know, your sort of recipe there was not to go solve this problem, but it like spend some time with them, give them a hug, like hard to do, not the hug part, but the spending time when you have like three other kids is hard.

And you mentioned too, in our prep for this, that a lot of problems can be solved with a couple of kind of very simple things. Time was one of them. So what are the two things that you kind of fall back on? You know, this is like the Occam's razor solution to parenting problems, but I tend to subscribe to this theory.

So what are those two? 

Lane: Yea. You know, and like, these are, by the way, discovered through like horrific trial and error. So like,

Adam: Yeah.

Lane: Don’t think that this was like easy to get to the simple version as, you know, as building product often it's, you have to go through massive complexity to get to the simple version.

So, I mean, I think two things. One is like, you know, the way that Meg talks about this is like, individually, their buckets have to be full, you know? So like, is Cal's bucket full? And the best way to do that is like, you know, 15, 20, 30 minutes of like full attention. And this is really, I find it to be quite challenging to accomplish if you use like a strict constraint, or if you use like a strict definition of this, so like, you know, really classic example in my house right now is like, I'll like, want to throw the baseball with Cal or he'll want to throw the baseball with me and I'll get my glove out and we'll go out there and then Tate’ll come join, you know, and then it's like, We're all three throwing the baseball.

And then like, suddenly we're in a competition for who's going to throw the most with dad. Right. And it's like, boy, that like escalated in 30 seconds, you know? And so I think the trick here is like, for us, at least as like separating those activities out. So it's like, we're going to go on like a bike ride or we're going to go like to town or we're going to go like, you know, truly separate you know, as much as you can.

And I just think that it solves so many downstream problems. Like when you've had that time. You know, bedtime gets easier or like all the downstream things that you're trying to do as a family, you know, get everyone out the door or whatever it is, or solve that way. So that's one. And then I think the other one is definitely hard fought.

It's just it's amazing how powerful a force nature is in dispersing like bad vibes, bad energy, you know, all the frustrations of a family, whatever. So, you know, during the pandemic we moved into a new house and not far from there, there's a place called Cascade Falls and it's this beautiful little, like, tiny little waterfall.

But to my kids, it's like this amazing place. Right. And I think it's super cool too. It's just amazing on the weekends when everybody's like at each other's throats by like 9:30, that if you just get everybody out of the house and like, you know, running through the woods or, you know, running around the park or whatever it is, everything is dispersed and everything is like good again, you know? And so I think that. We kind of now have this like hard constraint, like the, we just got to be out of the house by like a certain time on the weekends or else we know that like there'll be frustration. The house will get destroyed, you know, like all the downsides of that.

And, maybe other people's experience isn't like this, but like boys, like when they get going, they can really get going. So, those are the two tricks basically. You know, fill each one's bucket individually prior to the, you know, interaction of all of them.

And then to just like, get them outside, get them in nature.

Adam: Yea. I love both of those. They're so simple and yet hard to pull off unless you're kind of consciously aware like I got to do these things. This matters and it does. It completely changes stuff. That's been my experience as well. So I love those two. Little bit of a fun one, but what's your favorite book to read to your kids?

Lane: There's two that immediately come to mind, you know, young kids all three I've been reading the Llama Llama books like Llama Llama, Red Pajama, Llama Llama Goes Camping. Like, I think some of those rhyming books are really just like fun. I think rhyming is like a fun semantic thing.

And, you know, the fact that now Mara grabs the book from me and can say the rhymes, you know, like, it's like so fun. And I think yeah that comes to mind. I think a coworker wrote a book called You Can Play Sports. I think identified that. There are a lot of books about animals and all this other stuff.

And so she made this touch and feel book called You Can Play Sports and it has all the different balls and, you know, the volleyball feels like a volleyball and tennis ball feels like a tennis ball. And so, yeah, the admittedly biased toward young kids right now. So,

Adam: Yeah. I totally get it. How many of the Llama Llama books have you committed to memory and can read without actually looking at the words? Just page by page, not even looking at it.

Lane: Yeah, that's what's fun about rhyming is it like sticks in your brain in a different way. Yeah, totally yeah, I would say at least 50%. Yeah.

Adam: I'm almost there with the Lorax, which is a lengthy Dr. Seuss book. And so I'll know I have arrived when I've fully memorized that book. So, have you developed any particular frameworks or guardrails for parenting? We know we talked a lot about a lot of kind of smaller things and some of your philosophies, but just kind of curious if you have any other stuff that you would share.

Lane: Two things come to mind one is you know, and I talked about this a little bit earlier, but I think There's a very natural and like human impulse to solve every problem. And I think that like, especially for people who are like problem solvers at work, you know, like we all day, every day we're like, okay, cool.

Got that. Put that on a task list that goes over here. I'm going to solve this problem. I'm going to help everyone prioritize problems if needed. You know, I think there's just like this natural. This is what I do kind of like mentality that you bring from the office to parenting that is actually like not helpful.

You know what I mean? It's like, The point is not that you solve problems for kids. It's that they solve their own problems. And that is, I mean, for me, it's been hard to remind myself of that continuously, but that's maybe another kind of like frame or constraint that I think is helpful to me.

I think maybe the other thing related to like partnership is one thing that. Meg and I try to do is know when to like step in for each other. So. You know, this is like classic bedtime kind of situation, but like you're herding cats, trying to get everybody in pajamas and you're outnumbered and like, everybody's had a long day and some of us are tired and blah, blah, blah.

So I think you know, those are times that naturally lead to, you know, frustration or whatever, and I think that knowing when to kind of say like, hey, like I need five minutes, like, or like I need to take a break is really helpful. And I think also knowing when to do that for each other is like very helpful.

So like identify for your partner, hey, like, why don't you go, you know, like take a dog for a walk or bath or whatever, but like, I'll take over for a little bit. And I think that yeah, those have been some of the most helpful and like on point moments in, I think, our partnership, you know, in our marriage is just like, hey, I got it, you know?

Adam: Yeah. That's really great. And oftentimes like. You know, when your partner or you don't got it because you're depleted, they may actually have more energy. Their day maybe went different than yours. So that two way communication, super, super important. Have you thought at all about maybe how your parenting style has evolved from kid to kid now that you're on kid number three?

And then the second part of this question is how have you changed as a manager? And has parenting influenced that in any way?

Lane: It's a deep, deep question. yeah, I'm going to need another cup of coffee. I mean, I think probably the thing that has evolved the most is figuring out what the right level of structure to create for kids. It's like a fairly non intuitive thing that, you know, I guess maybe it was non intuitive for me that routines and like not having to make a lot of choices and you know, the sort of like, structures or constraints that you put on, that you help, you know, put on young kids can be like wildly successful at helping them be their best selves, and I think that is a lot of little things that kind of like add up, which is maybe a good management kind of like metaphor that it's the little things that sort of accumulate into building trust with your team or, with people that report to you.

I think I've kind of figured out that, look, if we can get everybody into a routine that is well understood that they'll be you know, the best version of themselves, they'll be happier because like they know what's expected of them. The parenting advice I've heard a lot has been moments of transition where like the expectations aren't clear are some of the most difficult moments for kids.

And so, you know, if you think about that in terms of constraints, and I think you know, good kind of like design principle is just like what constraints do we want to apply to this problem? And so in this case, you know, the constraint may be something like, can we just like minimize transitions in the latter half of the day, because like, that's the challenging time.

Okay, cool. Like, can we just not have so many transitions? My wife and I have had that conversation a lot of times. Like, okay. I like, we'll all go upstairs at this time, you know, then like the expectation is immediate brush teeth and then the immediate thing, you know, and so like, it's just a routine, but it also has

a set of expectations that don't change every time, you know? And I think that boy, that's a good, in my opinion, management metaphor, like, are the expectations clear? I think Claire Hughes Johnson, when I was a former CEO of Stripe, when I worked in her group at Google she had this phrase that I love and it was basically like, people need to know the game that they're playing, the rules of the game and how to win.

And I think that those types of constraints help people operate within the, you know, kind of boundary conditions that are going to make them successful and then they know, oh, this is what success looks like. And I can then operate in this world versus, you know, the opposite is, sometimes paralyzing when you don't have a good understanding of those things.

Adam: Yeah, it's somewhat related to the quests concept that we talked about at the beginning. If you think about it as a game with rules and an outcome and stuff like that. So, so it sounds like you and your, your wife have a really good partnership, which is important as we all know and I hope this does not lead to any challenges at home, but where's an area that the two of you don't agree on when it comes to parenting?

Lane: I'm trying to think of like a real fundamental disagreement. I don't think we have a big disagreement. I think sometimes I'm a little bit more inclined to quickly move beyond you know, a problem. And I think that I definitely understand why that shouldn't be the case sometimes, but I would say like, I think part of it is my norms, my, Upbringing is probably more comes from this like idea that, okay, you know, you made a mistake, you understand the mistake, let's move on from it.

And I think that the thing that Meg has done that's quite helpful is like, okay, like, what are we going to do differently next time? And that kind of leads to this idea of like constraints. That's something that like, took some discussion to figure out where are we like on this.

And I think like, I probably learned a bunch from her and she probably, you know, internalized a little bit of, of my perspective there. But yeah, no, no fundamental disagreements.

Adam: Well, that's good. That's a good thing. We're positive. Nine out of ten. Okay, so I wanted to ask you a question that overlaps a little bit with, your professional life. When you think about the relationship that you want your kids to have with technology, especially as they get older, what is that relationship? How do you talk to your kids about technology usage?

Lane: This is a really complicated topic. I don't think I have all the answers. My thinking is always evolving on this topic. Two things have probably influenced me a lot here. One is the story of Bill Gates and his kids and like not allowing, you know, cell phones and some of those bits of technology until, you know, much later, 13, 14, 15.

I think, you know, on the one hand, I feel somewhat conflicted in the sense that. Some of my most memorable times, some of my most like, wonderful focused, holistic, mindful experiences have been outside of technology. So, you know, in nature climbing, surfing on a hike, watching a sunset, like all these things that I think are in some ways just like in opposition to tech, which I think creates like a real tension. And then on the other side, like, I think the idea of creation in software and building and making things for other people has been like intensely gratifying in the last like 15 years. And so what I try to do is help my kids be creators in that kind of like medium as opposed to just consumers. And I don't know if this is the right thing or not, you know, to be honest. I helped build, you know, parts of the early, like YouTube monetization stuff and you know, I feel sad that like half of this generation wants to be YouTube creators as like their, you know, their profession, but on the other hand, like they're making stuff, they're putting something out into the world and like, who am I to judge that?

And so I think there's like a real, there's a real tension there. I think the thing that probably underpins that and like is maybe universal for me is building like resilient kids. And so in that way you know, the ability to learn new things, I think is just totally essential for any adults.

And thus, like you want to imbue that idea from early on. And so, I wouldn't say we like really shy away from technology. I'd rather them, you know, just get proficient wherever their interests take them. And I think that's really cool. Like to see kids interact with technology and be really interested.

Which I think feels different to me. And I'm not, sure how to, you know, talk about this specifically, but I think it feels really different to me than just being like a consumer of TV shows and like, that comes from someone who watched like a ridiculous amount of TV as a kid. So like, you know, who, again, it's a complicated topic and I don't, yeah, it's, I feel very conflicted.

Adam: I think it is complicated. But I think that is a really good distinction to make is like, do you use technology to build and to explore your creativity and to be kind of an active participant or are you a passive consumer? And, you know, I do think also there's probably something different about the TV that we watched versus you know, Tik TOK or YouTube reels. And the storytelling that was a bigger part of our childhood. So, but yeah, I'm no expert either. I just like asking people this question and I think that's a really good distinction to make this sort of builder versus consumer, which is fascinating.

What is something you had to give up to become a father?

Lane: Very specifically I was running this wine business on the side while I was working at Google and I would work on the weekends on the wine business and it was super fun. It was like my personal crash course in like brand and marketing and design because I was like just the person doing all of that.

So when Tate was born I left Google and joined Coda. And around that time, I just sort of said to the wine business partners, like I gotta be a silent partner. Like I, this is too much at this point. Which I don't often do like, but that was one of those instances where I knew I was over my skis.

That's like maybe a very tactical answer. I think I still, try to channel that energy, that same energy of like maker-ness into, you know, Coda and the things I make here. And then also with my kids, like, you know, my middle son loves to build, like he just wants to build anything.

And so like, we'll build random bird houses and boxes and like, you know, just try to channel that energy a slightly different way. And honestly in a more, probably a rewarding way in the end. But those are the things that come to mind. I mean, I think like everybody else, free time, you know, sleep, all those things, but those are kind of mundane.

Adam: When you think about having a, you know, family of family, three kids and a partner and you know, run a product organization at a fast growing startup that's a lot that can get overwhelming for any human. How do you center yourself or recharge what's like on your go to list of tools to kind of you know, take a beat, I guess.

Lane: I've had some version of a mindfulness practice meditation practice for like, oddly enough, like 20 years now. So since I was you know, in high school that certainly helps. And it's very hard to characterize how that helps, but it does.

I'm confident in that. The other thing is like having a reason to stop, you know what I mean? Like, so that's why coaching is a generally very positive way to like, disconnect because you're, you know, you're saying to your coworkers and to yourself and to your child that like, they're the priority and there's no better way to do that than to explicitly do that with your time.

And, and not just like you know, sort of low quality time, but like very focused time, you know, like, there's really no better way to disconnect than to like jump off zoom, jump in the car and start yelling at nine year olds, you know, like it just I can tell you it's very cathartic. I'm kind of joking, but like, you know, I think that's a good way to unwind.

The other thing is like, you know, I think every parent still needs to have something for themselves. And for me, that has been continuing some sort of like athletic pursuit, you know, whether that's like, when Tate was young, I was still climbing a bunch. And you know, in the pandemic I got like obsessed with tennis.

And so, you know, I think the way I operate is usually like, get really obsessed with something, want to know everything about it, want to learn everything about it and did that with tennis and that's been really gratifying, like it's been really nice to kind of have that outlet. To learn something new and disconnect from everything else.

Adam: Last question for you before our brief rapid fire round, which is, you know, if you worked at a couple of one really big tech company, Google, YouTube, you've worked at one very fast growing tech company, Coda. What are your thoughts on the notion of, you know, startup hustle culture and how that fits in with family life?

What have you specifically done to like work with that or through that as a dad?

Lane: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely challenging, like when the volume of work is like just the sheer volume out numbers, the number of hours in the day. So that is a constant struggle.

Adam: Yeah.

Lane: I think everybody deals with that. Especially if you take your career like seriously, or you know, you take your customers seriously and they're banging down the door and stuff like that.

I mean, I would say there's two things that I've learned there. One is when Tate was really young, I had just started at Coda and I was like commuting all the way down to Mountain View from San Francisco. It was like really long commute. And I think I made the mistake of just missing some of those hours.

And, those hours that are like right after work, right before bedtime and all of that. And I, you know, I definitely sort of resolved to not make that mistake later. And so, I leave the office at 5 PM or I leave work at 5 PM every day. And you know, I think I'm lucky, I'm very lucky to work in a mature startup.

Like this is a place where people came from many other, you know, companies that have had long careers. And so they understand what it's like to have kids. I don't think I could have pulled that off at, you know, a super early stage startup with all, you know, people without kids, it's just, you just different level of understanding of that problem.

So I think that that has been incredibly helpful. I feel very grateful for that. It's a big difference. If you think about like one hour with a kid versus three hours with a kid, like a three X difference is like a lot in the evening time. And like, of course, you want to spend time with them in the mornings.

And, you know, if you can pick them up from school and stuff like that. So I think that that's one piece of it. I mean, the other thing is, you know, everybody's like, some people are morning people, some people are night people. I have this problem where I can be both.

Like I can like, I can do the night shift, and then like, I'll do that for a while, work at night. And then like, sometimes I'll work really early in the morning. And so usually I'm at my best when I'm going to bed early, waking up at, you know, five o'clock doing a bunch of work before everybody gets awake and on Slack and all of that.

So that's definitely the best, you know, to, to accommodate the volume of work. I think that's the best thing I can do.

Adam: Yep. All right, on that note, if you have a few minutes for Rapid Fire, possibly my favorite part of the show.

Lane: Let's do it.

Adam: Okay, here we go. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have ever purchased?

Lane: Hands down sound machines. Yeah. They're blaring violently in our house. Yeah.

Adam: What is the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased?

Lane: Most everything else. Yeah.

Adam: I love that. Finish this sentence for me. The ideal day with my kids involves this one activity.

Lane: Hiked Cascade falls, being out in nature. Thank you.

Adam: What is your go to dad wardrobe?

Lane: My wife sometimes makes fun of me 'cause I will have jeans and then like sneakers, like kind of dorky sneakers on that's not a good look apparently. And then more recently I've been someone, someone actually said this to me, they said, I've only seen you in Cubs gear lately. I'm coaching the Cubs right now and so I'm in a Cubs hoodie and hat usually.

Adam: Awesome. What is the favorite age for your kids?

Lane: I Think three to five is like the most fun age because you just get to hear this like pure stream of consciousness. Like, I'm just gonna tell you exactly what I am thinking, feeling, seeing. And it's just very cute, you know, and like all the kind of missed words and aminals and it's all, it's all like kind of a treasure that is fleeting in some ways.

Adam: I love that. What is your least favorite age?

Lane: On a plane with a child who's one years old. Yeah, for sure. 

Adam: That's very specific, like a clue reference there, like on a plane with a child, one year old.

Lane: Watching them wiggle down the aisle when you're like, I can't do this

Adam: I don't know if you've gotten into dad jokes, but how many dad jokes do you tell on average each day? This could be to co workers or your kids or your spouse. 

Lane: I don't think I'm very funny so I never try to tell jokes. Yeah.

Adam: Well you're going to have to bone up on the dad jokes. You could talk to another podcast guest of mine, Tom Willerer. He's got a whole book of them. Your kids are probably not old enough yet to be fully embarrassed of you. But what is the most embarrassing thing that you've ever done in front of one of your children, or I guess put a better way, what have you been informed was a very embarrassing thing that you've done in front of your children.

Lane: Yeah. I made the mistake of giving my nine year old a hug like a month ago in front of all his friends and he turned beet red and was like, dad, and I was like, sorry, bro. I'm like, Whoa, geez.

Adam: Hug. Man. Cardinal sin for a nine year old. What is the most absurd thing that a child in your household has ever asked you to buy for them?

Lane: There's a candy store near our house that has like all these old novelty candies and somehow this candy store carries like candy cigarettes. And I'm like, no, you're not getting candy cigarettes like this. I don't know how these things still exist, but…

Adam: Yes, it is amazing that they still exist. What is the most difficult kids TV show that you've ever had to sit through?

Lane: Cocoamelon for sure. It's like the creepiest thing ever.

Adam: I think Cocomelon may be the number one cited. TV show. They will never advertise on this podcast.

Lane: Like, you know, it's a private equity thing, right? You got to look behind the scenes

Adam: Yes. What is your favorite kids movie?

Lane: Last summer, we were at my parents house and we were outside watching the movie Luca. and My kids like looked over and like I was crying. They were like, whoa so that movie has stuck with me. I really like that movie

Adam: It's a heartwarming tale of a relationship between a child and pushing his boundaries and his parents. So I love it. You may not have this experience cause you said you like to build things, but what is the worst experience that you've ever had assembling a children's toy or a piece of furniture?

Lane: Any knockoff Lego robotics thing. So Lego spins and I give it like a talk about this, but like Lego spends upwards of, you know, 40 million a year on clutch power to keep these things together. And the, it's like a very precise, you know, within the width of a hair thing, but there's all these knockoff Lego kits and they're all kind of don't work and they're all the instructions were as if like, maybe like AI generated them like five years ago. And so the instructions don't really work either. 

Adam: I love that. In the Shackleton household, how long can a piece of food sit on the floor and you will still eat it?

Lane: A very long time. Yeah. A very long time.

Adam: What nostalgic movie can you not wait to force your kids to watch with you?

Lane: The first thing that comes to mind is Field Of Dreams, baseball reference. Yeah. Classic. You want to have a catch dad? Yeah.

Adam: Love that. How often do you tell your kids back in my day stories,

Lane: I Am day by day turning into my father as we all do. And so I would say in the last couple of years, it's gone up quite a bit. And now that I'm coaching baseball, they get a version of, you know, back in my day, there were no sliding mitts or glasses or, you know, all these things.

Adam: You get the sort of Al Bundy four touchdowns in a single game, but the baseball equivalent. I get it. Final question. My favorite. Three kids, I don't know if you also have pets, but what is your take on minivans?

Lane: More than happy to rent them. We'll never procure one. We have decided as a family, we will never drive a minivan. And it is a point of some contention with friends who love their minivans.

Adam: Wow. Wow. But you and your wife have a pact, an anti minivan pact. I love that. Good to see you're both aligned on this. This can often be a rift in the household from my experience. So, Lane, thank you so much for joining me on startup dad today. It was a pleasure having you.

I appreciate you taking all the time and uh, good luck with the baseball team.

Lane: Thank you. Thanks for having me. It was fun chatting with you

Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with CODA Chief Product Officer, Lane Shackleton. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify.

It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Heron. You can join a community of over 10,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth product and parenting by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com. Thank you for listening. See you next week.