Fostering interests in your children, maintaining friendships and pandemic tradeoffs | Ryan Johnson (father of 2, CPO at CallRail)

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Ryan: for me it's kind of like threading that, like being present, like, Hey, I gotta go to a swim meet. But like if I have to get something done when they go to bed, I'm gonna spend an hour or two at night to knock it out. And that's been my balance versus the kind of, 60, 80 hour work week, no breaks in between, you know, type of things.

Adam-IntroOutro: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman, and in this episode I sat down with Ryan Johnson. Ryan is the chief product officer of CallRail and was early in the AI industry doing cutting edge computer vision work on videos and images.

He is a husband and a father of two kids in this episode. Ryan talks about growing up in the Midwest and how that shaped him to love hard work. We talk about the challenges of maintaining friendships with parents of kids who are at different ages than yours, and some of the worst parenting advice he's ever received.

We also talked about the conversation he had with his wife Becky, about which one of them would step back from the workforce during the pandemic, and how he owes much of his career success to their supportive partnership. I learned about how he fosters interests in each of his kids, from art to sports, to other forms of creativity.

I'm excited to share this episode with you today.

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Adam: I would like to welcome Ryan Johnson to the Startup Dad podcast today. Ryan, it's great to have you here. Thank you for joining me.

Ryan: Yeah, thanks for having me. Super excited.

Adam: Awesome. Well, Tell me a little bit more about your professional background.

Ryan: Sure. So a lot of folks in tech never intended to go into tech out of school. Studied finance, accounting, thought I was gonna be a C p a, figured that was boring. Also lucked out a little bit because I you know, was graduating in, in 2002 from undergrad and that was like the big collapse of all the accounting firms with Enron and all that fun stuff.

So all my friends that had jobs had them rescinded. but started my career in financial services. Through internships, those types of things figured out. I enjoyed the analysis part much more than the selling part. But that doesn't really work out when you're commission based. And a really good friend of mine his name is also Ryan, he had a small SS E O s E M web development company, focus on law firms.

And that's kind of how I tip my toe in the water of technology. So, started doing websites and S E O S E M in the early days and kind of evolved through there. You know, leading, been on both sides of engineering and product. And so. LED engineering teams at a startup here in Atlanta called Vire.

We got acquired by Oracle in 2012. So it's always a fun exercise to go from 300 to 120,000 people organization. And then from there after Oracle went to the product side spent a few years kind of on bleeding edge ai on vision models, so with images and video. And then eventually brought myself to CallRail, which was really awesome.

The C T O and a number of leaders and engineers, we all worked together at Vire and Oracle. and I came in to run the product team at that time almost six years ago now.

Adam: Wow. And it, it sounds like, you mentioned you worked an AI company maybe before AI was fashionable. What do you make of the current you know, fervor or froth or what have you around AI these days? Is it like, I missed my window or something?

Or how do you think about it?

Ryan: There's a little bit of that. I would say, you know, the technology that we were focusing on is taking a lot of different data sources and making sense of it particularly to detect things as they happen. So using social media and E 9 1 1 and weather and being able to use that data to power some of the biggest media companies like C N N and B B C to help them break the news as soon as possible.

But also provide like corporate security. So a brand like Starbucks wants to know what's going on at their stores how can they protect their employees. And it was very ahead of its time. Like one people were. You know, not so comfortable with social yet and what are they doing with my data and all those types of things.

And then here we are, we come out with technology that's like, oh, we can detect a fire and explosion in this video, and then we can triangulate all these data sources within, you know, seconds. And then say like, yes, this is what's happening right now. And so it was difficult because people just didn't believe it.

 There was a lot of you know, questioning about it. Whether it was the data, whether it was, you know, how did humans play into it versus ai. We were able to raise a massive round of a hundred million dollars. We were 39 people. We didn't know what the hell to do with it.

Adam: could think of a few things.

Ryan: We did we, we thought of, of quite a few things.

You know, Amazon was very happy at that time with all the compute that we needed. And so, yeah I do think it's a little bit of like, damn, like we were ahead and, talking about things, but at the same time, it's nice to finally see it out there and like practical. Like, I used to try to tell people what I did and you know, it's just, you know, over their head.

And now, you know, everybody's kind of played with chat G B T and those types of things. So kind of nice. You don't have to do all the explaining. There's a little bit more context in the market.

Adam: that's great. That's really great. You mentioned too at some point there that people were always very skeptical of what social media was gonna do with their data and things like that. And now we know what social media's gonna do with our data, and we just have thrown caution to the wind, right?

Like there's, it's all very transparent what happens now.

Ryan: That's right.

Adam: it just made me laugh when you were saying that. So I wanna talk about family life because that's what this podcast is all about, and it kind of starts with your life growing up. And I understand that you are a fellow Michigander, like myself.

So it sounds like you grew up in Michigan. Is that right

Ryan: that's right. I grew up right about there. I think that's the,

Adam: there? It

Ryan: our secret handshake. If you're really from Michigan show it on your hand.

Adam: Yeah. Awesome. And tell me a little bit about your family growing up. What did your parents do? What's your kind of like family makeup like

Ryan: Yeah. So I grew up in Saginaw, Michigan. You know, it was focused on supporting the automotive industry. GM had a big plant there and some others. And so growing up my father worked at steering gear. So he put together the thing that helped steer your car the big tunnel. And was there for 30 years, went through retirement, but at the same time put himself through law school.

He actually did Michigan undergrad, so, that's why I am a, a Wolverine fan. And put himself through Knight Law School. I can remember growing up and he would do third shift, so he would leave the house at you know, at that time he was doing like the, I guess I would say first shift at that time, and then doing law school at night, and then later on in life he would practice law all day and then go to work at night from three to midnight working on the line.

So two completely different worlds, like, you know, looking at your dad and you know, oil stain things to go and then like being in a courtroom , which is just really impressive. And then my mother was a special education teacher. She actually taught at my high school. So that's always fun to have your mom at the high school you go to.

You know, actually it was beneficial. Like, you know, you can be late. And I was an introvert back then, and she was our class sponsor, right? And so she actually knew more girls and and people than I did and they loved my mom. So it actually helped out. It worked out a little bit.

 but yeah, most of my family stayed around the Saginaw area. My grandparents and uncle owned multiple businesses in the area, so they had a little small movie theater and they had a a we called a cowboy bar called the Rock and Roundup. They had a nursing home. And so always been around like family businesses since an early age.

I worked in them. Did every job you could kind of imagine. So. Being a janitor at a nursing home at, you know, 15 years old to painting and mowing the lawns and doing all that type of stuff. And then I have a younger sister and brother. So my sister is a few years behind me, and then my brother is almost 10 years younger.

Adam: And so you had a pretty diverse set of professions in your family. You've got like blue collar worker in the auto industry, which I have a lot of auto industry family because, hey, you grew up in Michigan. That's what you do. Also a lawyer, then a teacher, and then you've got these sort of like local on local business entrepreneur grandparents.

How do you think that shaped sort of your career trajectory? Is there influence that seeing those different experiences had on you?

Ryan: Thank you so much. I started a paper route when I was 12 years old and I've been working nonstop since then. It sounds crazy, but like, I love work. I couldn't imagine retiring which also sounds a little bit crazy, but it influenced me since an early age, like when my grandparents had the movie theater, I wanted to work there more than anything and I just couldn't, 'cause they serve alcohol.

So it was the age thing and and there were opportunities to take the businesses over as well too down the road. my uncle you know, is the one that kind of carried the torch with a lot of those. and so it was ingrained like work hard and and it was very diverse, right?

Like my grandmother was the operator. It was not my grandfather of those businesses. My grandfather was actually a colonel in the army, so he was doing that reserve stuff. And then he was a bookkeeper, he was an accountant, so he was in the back room and. And my grandmother was the operator. And so there's pictures of her in a boardroom full of men in the sixties and seventies.

And just super inspiring with, you know, what I've wanted to do and and certainly open up my mind of like, you have this image of what you're gonna come out of school and do and certainly could imagine technology or, or product. I could probably couldn't have tell you what a product manager did in college you know, 20 years ago.

Adam: Wow. Some people still can't tell you what a product manager does,

Ryan: I don't know if I can, depends on the day

Adam: I think Brian Chesky might be one of those people. so let's fast forward to Ryan now. So, you've got a family, otherwise you wouldn't be on this show. You have a wife, a partner two kids.

How'd you meet your wife? And then tell me about your kids. I.

Ryan: Yeah, so, I met my wife Becky in college. So I went to Albion College, a small liberal arts school right down the road from University of Michigan there. It was actually smaller than the high school I went to. And my best buddy, Trevor was dating her roommate and and made the introduction. We were also in fraternities and sororities, such as a small school, like 60% of the school was Greek.

And we happened to be Greek week partners. And so, so that's how we met. And you know, she was a year behind me, which is interesting. So I moved to Las Vegas after undergrad and we can talk about that. But you know, did some long distance early on and you know, just love her to death.

Have a great partnership and relationship and yeah. We have two beautiful girls. Cora Six and Harper's nine.

Adam: Awesome. Very similar age to my kids, eight and 10. it's a fun, fun age.

Ryan: it is.

Adam: so you've got this six year old and nine year old, both girls. And one of the things you had mentioned to me that was sort of important or challenging or something you've worked at is maintaining friendships with people who have kids at different ages and stages of life.

So tell me a little bit about that. How do you manage those relationships? And especially you probably get a lot of advice and feedback from people and vice versa. So, so what's that like?

Ryan: Yeah. I thought it was an interesting topic because we were, even though I would say we weren't young when we started having kids, we're in our early thirties. We were kind of the first of our friend group to have kids. and so that's interesting, right? So you have a bunch of friends, you're the first one, they're kind of living their life.

They don't understand why you can't come out anymore. And just drop these things. And why do you look like zombies all day? 'cause you're not getting any sleep. And then they eventually have kids, right? And so, everybody's drawing from these different data points, right? Based on their experiences.

And you know, some people are like, oh, my kid just slept 12 hours a night on day two. I don't know why it's so hard. And you know, others like us, you know, our first like, you know, the first three months was just miserable. She would not sleep. And so it's tough to kind of, be supportive and not be prescriptive.

You know, you have certain friends that are like, oh, why don't you just use this? And you're like, yeah, that's not how it works. You know, and then you try to draw, you know, people have really been through it. They have kids older than you and and you know, you kind of look at them and you know, especially the ones that have three and four kids, and you're like, how the hell did you do this?

I don't like one. Like, I don't know. I have no idea what's gonna happen after this. Obviously we had a second, but like, there's a point in time you look at them, you go like, what? Like, it must get better. Like, show me the way. And so I think it's kind of difficult. And one thing during the pandemic that was interesting is I feel like we were much closer because it was like, okay, you have a bunch of kids, like take them outside.

That's the only thing you could do. Go to a park and just let them run and kind of age. And that stuff didn't really matter as much and they were very young. But as they get older and you're in different schools, you know, we live here in Atlanta. It's a big city. So the boundaries of where the schools Or, you know, some of the groups, they start, you know, even in first, second grade it's kind of wild as you watch them in these groups and your friends and you start to distance, right?

You know, everybody was invited to the parties before and now no one is because, you know, they got 20 kids in their first grade class that they gotta deal with now. So it's kind of interesting to, to manage those. You know, and then it's fun now where you have friends that have kids and you see the pain that they're going through and you're like yep, glad I'm not there.

Do what you gotta do. So it's interesting dynamics to deal with.

Adam: Yeah. What do you think the worst piece of advice that you ever got from another parent was by the way the 12 hours of sleep on the second night? That really, that one really, that hurts. That one really irks me. But what's another um, just terrible piece of advice that, that you got

Ryan: I think it it's, it is a lot with like, probably more towards Becky, you know, things with like breastfeeding and sleeping where it's just, you think it's easy. You just think it's this nature thing and it's just supposed to happen and it's easy and it's a cluster. And so it's just like all the things, have you tried this?

Have you tried this? Yes. Like we have it's not helping at all. Like, can you just come over and watch the baby for a little bit? You know, or it's like the latest and greatest. I read this, you know, did you try this? , and I know we're gonna get into it, is you know, my, my youngest has a rare autoinflammatory disease.

And so there's things around that when we didn't know. You know, and she had hives and fevers. There's lots of opinions. Did you see this doctor? Did you try this? And maybe it's gluten and maybe it's this. And you know, it turned out to be something, you know, significantly rare. So I think that stuff was kind of like the, like, okay, like we get it.

You're trying to help, but it's you know, it's not.

Adam: yeah. Yeah. I also, I think it's great what you pointed out there that a lot of the advice came in Becky's direction. I feel like dad's, well, one dads don't have a very deep bench of advice for each other. It's like, we have one trick if that doesn't work. I don't know. And so, but man, that the mom advice is real and it's just like never ending.

And I, I mean, I don't think it probably stops until the kids are, I don't know, adults themselves and on their own. And then even then probably you get you know, grandmother advice from each other. So, tell me a little bit about Becky. Yeah. Love, love to learn more about her.

Ryan: Yeah, so another Michigander you know, grew up in the Detroit area in Clinton Township.

Adam: Where my mom lived for a long time.

Ryan: really nice. So she, she grew up there you know, went to all girls Catholic school there before coming to Albion. And she has a degree in geology and you know, came out of school, started working in sustainability and in environmental consulting and those types of things.

And so, you know, working for oil companies to really interesting stuff with casinos. 'cause we lived in Las Vegas. So she actually did all this type of federal air permitting for their generators when the power goes out. And you have these huge things that run on diesel, like they have like federal permits almost like factories do.

 and so she did that at the corporate level actually for a little bit, worked in Caesars Palace, which is pretty amazing in their, their corporate offices there. and yeah spent about 18 years doing that, you know, most recently working on all the uh, energy efficiency, green building types of projects for new and existing buildings.

So all the big skyscrapers you see here in Atlanta. We can drive down I 75 and I can point 'em out and be like, yeah, that was her project and

her project. and yeah, and has, you know, been on this crazy ride with me across the country a couple times and startup world, and she's had the You know, this stable job with insurance and all those things that sometimes we need to pursue our passions.

Adam: Yeah. And I think you mentioned, you know, when we were doing some prep for this call that, that she. During the pandemic, like a lot of women stepped back from full-time out of the homework, not, don't want to make short shrift of the fact that working inside the home with two kids is taxing and challenging, but she stepped out of her kind of typical professional life.

Tell me a little bit about what that conversation was like with her. How did you, the two of you come to the conclusion that that made the most sense? And I imagine it was a big decision.

Ryan: yeah. We, you know, we probably made it 12 months through the pandemic, both working both kids on zooms and those types of things. She was already working part-time at that point to try to help out with more of the home front stuff, but business just was not slowing down. It was actually picking up.

And it just was not sustainable. I, you know, being in the same house all day, four computers running and trying to manage everything it just didn't feel sustainable. And it was really her idea, like this wasn't a a family meeting of like, you know, rock, paper, scissors, who's going to, you know, but it, I think it was very much driven by her to say like, Hey, my stuff isn't slowing down.

Your stuff isn't slowing down. You know, she never really took time off when they were babies, and it was like, maybe now's a good time to do it. You know, she'd been at her last company for 10 years, which is amazing. Like, we just don't hear of that, especially in our world of tech. And so it was like, Hey I, I need a break in the outside workforce and focus on the girls and help us through the, I.

You know, the challenging stuff that we're in. So it was very much driven by her and of course I was very supportive you know, relieved as well too. Um, Just to be able to have, you know, a lot less to, you know, on your mind. when it comes to the balance of parenting and and work.

Adam: Yeah. And what a fortunate position to be in too, to be able to have someone that can do that. Right? Like, not that many people were, that were sort of in that boat. So,

Ryan: know

Adam: I wanna stay on this topic of you. One of the things you mentioned right before this was Becky's the one who has had the real job, right?

With the benefits and the security and working at the same place for. For 10 years. Yeah not to take any way anything away from CallRail, which I'm sure is also a real job. But you know, it's so rare, like you mentioned in the tech world to, especially in the world of startups, to stick with something for a decade, right?

Like, unless you founded the company. so, you know, I guess one question that I have is that's probably a conversation that the two of you had a few times about, like, who gets to be the stable parent and who gets to be the, you know, the balloon flying off, flying up and down, and then all, so I kind of wanna hear more about that.

And then also what was it like when, you know, Becky stepped back from the professional workforce and you didn't have that quote, real job person with the stability and the benefits and the decades long, you know, job security and stuff like that.

Ryan: Yeah. So it was definitely conversations when I started my career in financial services as a big publicly traded company and, you know, had all those types of things, certainly before kids and. So it was very small time, two person like, Hey, why don't we try this out? Looks interesting.

And I think there's different ebbs and flows. I think you know, Vire was, you know, I would say still in the height, like the big growth, not as stable, but then getting an acquired by Oracle, you know, obviously you have the stability there but we always get drawn back into it. And so it was definitely like, okay, we gotta have at least one job that has benefits and if things go sideways, you know, we can do that.

I think luckily CallRail when I joined was much more further ahead of the curve and so, obviously that risk was not there. But definitely a conversation and it's wild. I have friends that, you know, both. Both partners are like founders of companies and have these things, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like, how the hell do you do this?

Like, because it's, it's just a lot of stress and not that her work was not hard or stressful, but in different ways. And, you know, coming home and thinking like, okay, are we gonna make payroll this week? So having that was really important. I think, you know, I literally could not have done what I've been able to do in my career without her, like hands down.

You know, she said, Hey, I want to go back to school and get my. Doctorate in geology and be a professor, which was things in our mind, you know, right after school. Like I, I probably wouldn't have gone this path. Like we wouldn't have been able to do those things. So I think it's that partnership, that balance of figuring things out.

And then certainly, you know, the last two years has just helped dramatically to know that, you know, she's at home and the kids can get to swim and, and all these activities and I don't have to worry about it having a bigger team and you know, all these dynamics going on. So it's been a lot, you know, less stress to have to worry about those things.

And know that like the real hard job is being taken care of at the home and have that support. And I, like I said I, do not know how I would do without her. I would probably still be a financial advisor or an accountant. Not that those are bad things, but I'm gonna be

Adam: Just not bad, just maybe less exciting

Ryan: there you go. There you go. There you

Adam: so tell me about the decision to, to start A family.

Ryan: , for us, I think it was partly financially driven. We had a lot of student loan debt, you know, came out of school and had, , entry level jobs. And so financially you want to be in a better place. You know, we were 21 and 22 when we moved to Vegas. And so, that is

certainly not on the agenda to have kids.

And so, you know, over time I, you know, I was the oldest The grandchildren in, in my family. And so my grandmother the business leader I was talking about, she really wanted great-grandchildren. Like really wanted them. and we, we took our time. I certainly probably dragged my feet a little bit more 'cause I always had this like, Hey, here's a perfect time, the perfect job, the perfect amount of money in the bank.

And you realize it doesn't come. And then you're sitting in your early thirties and you're like, oh, you know, shit, if I don't get started, I'm gonna have, , 10 year old kids and I'm, you know, 60. So, you know, like, so like time's a ticking. And so, you know, eventually it was like, okay, like let's do it.

There's never gonna be a great time. And yeah, we luckily, we were fortunate enough to have two.

Adam: Awesome, awesome. And what's the earliest memory that you have of becoming a father?

Ryan: So I, this is the one piece of advice I tell every new father out here. It is like, my one thing, I think you mentioned it, we have like one trick, and this is like my trick when Becky was pregnant, none of it seems real. It's like you're in this movie, like you're getting the rooms together, you're having baby showers, she's getting bigger.

You're feeling the kicks, but you're not really going through it. Nothing's changing with your body. And you know, I think she delivered a day or two late, it was like full term, very close to it with Harper. And I, I remember like, damn, can't she just come like, we're all prepped, the seat's in there, like, let's just go.

 And we get to the hospital still, like, you know, she's given birth all that. Still doesn't, again, I'm in this movie. It's not, It's not me. And Harper comes out. And they hand her to me after, and then I said, holy shit, what am I gonna do now? How am I gonna pay for her college? My jobs have to work out.

I can't move back in with my parents anymore. For some reason, I had this in my head that that was always an option to, to move back in stomach is real

bad.

Adam: your head, maybe not in Becky's head.

Ryan: no, definitely not in Becky's head, but in my head I had multiple fail safes. Um, That was my earliest memory of like, I am a dad and I have to take care of this, you know, thing that like is giving me no reaction.

I don't, you know, especially in the early days. And that's like one of the very first early memories of like, in that, you know, as soon as she uh, came out, that was the only time it was real. Up until that point it was kind of like this movie and you're kind of watching it.

Adam: yeah. Wow. That's amazing. And I feel very similar in my time with the newborn. So that's really pertinent advice in sharing for fellow dads or future dads. What are some of the most surprising things that you've discovered as a dad?

Ryan: Gosh, there's so many. O one is like catching yourself talking or thinking like your parents. It's like the most annoying thing ever. Just like little mannerisms or tics or sayings. Like that's surprising 'cause you thought there's no way that's gonna happen. I. It's also, it, one of the odd things that I think about is I always thought about my parents.

Like I can remember when my dad turned 40 and my mom put this sign out on the, we lived on a busy street and it said, Lordy, lordy Randy's 40. We still love him. I like, I remember that. And I was about Cora's age. I had to be six or seven. And I remember, ma'am, my dad is so old

Adam: Yeah.

Ryan: and here I am 43.

And I'm like, I don't feel old and mature in that type. Like, I'm still figuring life out. And like, that's like the weird thing as a parent. Like you just thought they had their stuff figured out, and guess what they did not. And we ended up okay. But it was a little scary. Like now I was thinking about it being like, oh my gosh, I thought they had their stuff together.

They did not. And so that's been interesting as a parent. And then I just think like their personalities and. Things that they take from each parent, like you see Becky and, Harper and Cor in certain ways, and you see Ryan in certain ways and it's just interesting what it is.

It's just like total randomness of genes and what they pick up from you. And it's just amazing to kind of see that funny, like, oh, that's, or Ryan, or, oh, that's a Becky. It's truly amazing how it, like, all gets intertwined and how that evolves and and how it changes over time as well

Adam: Yeah. Do you have one kid that's like more like you and one kid that's more like Becky?

Ryan: Yeah, , my oldest Harper is just like me. And I get made fun of that way. she's outgoing. She will talk to anybody. She has confidence even when she shouldn't have confidence. And Cora is much more of a thinker and, you know, scientist and a little bit more quiet, a little bit more reserved but will surprise you a great sense of humor.

So yeah, we definitely have our like, oh, Harper's, like Ryan and Cora's, , like Becky.

Adam: that's cute. So one of the things you mentioned during our prep was you know, this idea of kind of fostering interests in your kids, and you mentioned to me that you are a big racing fan, car racing fan. And so that's obviously one thing that you've tried to foster an interest in with your kids, probably with some fits and starts there.

Tell me a little bit about that and then tell me about how do you foster, how do you work on getting your kids interested in things like music and art and sports in the case of racing or other sports? I'm sure it's, you know, it's not easy. Kids always don't do what we want them to do, so,

Ryan: I grew up, my parents were big motor sports fans growing up, and they went to like the Indy 530 years in a row. And you know, I certainly got to go to those races and the races at m i s and Michigan and in downtown Detroit and Bell Isle and those types of things. So from the earliest age I was exposed to it.

That was like their thing. It was part of family vacations. And I just became obsessed with it through life whether it's myself, you know, taking my car to the track and doing that, or going to, to car races. And so, you know, I, one is, I try to expose 'em to those things and bring them to car races.

You know, I think they enjoy the treats there probably more than the excitement 'cause they get, you know, pop and candy and all that fun stuff. But it's really just about exposure. You know, people think, well, you know, girls are not gonna be in the cars and that type of stuff.

That's not true at all. Like, They can tell you a certain brand of car when it comes by. They know daddy's car. They know what it sounds like. They know things about it. And what I've learned is just not to be forceful. There's times where I'm, you know, like, Hey, I got this and I, you know, bought 'em this shirt at this race and it's stayed in a, a closet for six months.

And then I expose 'em to something. I take 'em to, to something. And then like the next day they're wearing it to school, like out of the blue. And I was like, what made you do this now? Oh, we're at the racetrack and we saw you in the car daddy. So we wanna, you know, show it. I'm like, well, what do you tell your kids at school what this is?

And so it's really amazing to see. And like you said, it ebbs and flows. And then, , on the, music and art and sports we're pretty laid back about it. You know, we ask them, Hey, do you want to do soccer and you know, tennis or T-ball and those types of things.

Of all sports that they took to was swimming. There is no swimmers in my family at all, or Becky's family, every single cousin. There's literally not one competitive swimmer. And they're really good at it and they really enjoy it. They did their first swim competition in Atlanta like all summer. You know, it was like weekly meets and it ended at the Olympic pool at Georgia Tech where the Olympics were.

And so, you know, here's these little tiny dots, you know, in this like crazy pool at six and nine. And they love it. And I don't even know how they move in the water with some of the strokes that they do. But it is being there and being supportive and, and we get into it, right? That's kind of the stuff I remember with my parents supporting, you know, the sports and things that I was involved in.

They would just get into it and show support and and just letting them explore things. And they, they do music class and it was because You know, a friend's kid that we were visiting had a piano or a keyboard and they were banging on it. And then you're like, well, if you're interested you can do it.

Yeah, let's do it. Great. And art and in those types of things. And so really, I think it's not trying to press too hard on those types of things and you know, for me it's exciting 'cause I feel they're really good at things that I was never great

1. you know, when it comes to the swimming stuff or the art and the music.

So it's really interesting to see that where there is like no outside influence from Becky or I, it's from friends or family or grandparents, those types of things.

Adam: No, that's interesting. So I wanted to switch gears for a second and talk about, you know, some of the tougher parts about parenting. And one of the things I wanted to come back to was what you mentioned about your youngest daughter, Cora, and that she has a rare autoinflammatory disease.

So tell me about that. What is it? How does it manifest? And then we could, I wanna talk a little bit more about the process of getting that figured out.

Ryan: Yeah, so, she has a disease called muckle Well Syndrome. It's about a one in a 4 million occurrence, so it is very rare. And it's due to a mutation of, they call it N L R three P gene it's a protein. And basically what happens is your body's Constantly inflamed. And so the best way to describe it is when you're cooking in the kitchen and , your smoke detector goes off, but there's no fire.

Like, that's what her body is doing. And her first response. And so at a very young age, about 2, 2, 3 weeks in, we were actually doing her cute baby photos. She started getting hives at the end of it and we thought, well, maybe it was just 'cause of the clothes and doing all this type of stuff, and they wouldn't go away.

And so we went to the pediatrician and they sent us to a a dermatologist. So then they kind of prescribe, you know, antihistamines, all those types of things. She started to get fevers more regularly, like low grade fevers. She had a little blood in her stool. And so we knew something was going on.

And so at this point we were in Las Vegas. You know, it was kind of going from specialist to specialist there and ruling things out, you know, kind of based on their lens. So if you think you know, dermatologist is thinking the hives are some type of reaction. So, you know, treat it that way.

And then, you know, the allergist is like, well, maybe she's having a reaction through breastfeeding and those types of things. So then elimination diets come and those types of things. And so it was very frustrating for a good amount of time where, you know, here's this little baby that can't say anything.

It's covered head to toe in hive says low grade fever. Nothing really will change, you know, nothing we're doing seems to be making an effect on it. And it was this process of elimination going from doctor to doctor. And when we moved to Atlanta our pediatrician for when Harper was born we went to him and he sent us to a specialist here.

They did some blood work and kind of the first blood work stuff was scary. They said you might need to get a spinal tap because we don't like what we're seeing. She could have leukemia and those types of things. So very like, kind of,

well, shit, like this is scary stuff. And, you know, consulting with our primary pediatrician here and saying like, Hey, this is what this specialist, and, you know, they're talking to people at Harvard and Yale Medical, you know, their colleagues like they know something's.

 not right. I. eventually our thank God our primary pediatrician got us to a specialist at the children's Hospital here in Atlanta, choa in their blood disorders and cancer group with a hematologist there. And you know, he happened to be this like super specialist with this stuff.

He took one look at her and said, I think she has muckle well syndrome. Everything that you're telling us is symptoms align with it. I want to do some genetic testing. I think it's this gene insurance denied like the big broader um, uh, testing. So he is like, I'm gonna test this one gene. And he was spot on.

He's exactly right. And it's just crazy. And at the same time, I actually had a good friend from high school that dawned on me that he was a pediatric hematologist out in Irvine, California. So I called him. It was telling him this stuff like, Hey, spinal tap and this, and he was like, send me all her stuff, like pro bono, let my team take a look at it.

And by happenstance, his partner doctor was in a group at the doctor here in Atlanta too, that specialized in these things. And yeah, so she got diagnosed with Muckle Wells syndrome and very unique that we were able to diagnose it this early. A lot of times it gets diagnosed as like hives for no known reason or fevers for no known reason.

It's just kind of this thing that people will deal with their whole life. And you can imagine your body being inflamed for that long. It can have other effects. It can impact your organs. Curing loss is a common Symptom and those types of things. And so, luckily with her, she has a, a more mild moderate case of it.

So she doesn't have the drastic like organ issues or joint issues that we know of. And so she's on an injectable shot. So it started out like twice a day at the house. So Becky and I had to administer that. And luckily there's , another one that we could utilize.

It was once every like eight weeks and now it's once every six weeks. And it was like a light switch, like literally her first shot hives went away, fevers went away. The lethargy went away. The teachers at preschool were like, this is a completely different kid, has all this energy and And yeah, don't know if we would've figured it out without being in Atlanta.

Like it was, it, you know, it's kind of like a whack-a-mole game. And and it is something very rare. Like we've met one other family in Atlanta that they introduce us to that child that had it. And we're also very fortunate, a lot of times when you have this, you have other mutations with like more serious, you know, types of you know, issues with bone deformities and being in the hospital all the time with fevers or the medicines don't work and those types of things.

So I feel we're very fortunate with that aspect of it.

Adam: Wow, what a miracle to get to the right doctors and get that sorted out at such a young age too. that whole process of you know, bouncing from doctor to doctor and them giving you sort of the House MD treatment, which is like, well, let's try this and let's try this. That must have been pretty, pretty nerve wracking I imagine, like I bet it was pretty stressful on the family.

Ryan: well, and especially when they're so young, it's just like, oh, you want to give them this stuff? And then, you know, this other doctor, you know, through their lens is like, oh, I wouldn't do that. very taxing. I think especially on Becky, I think, you know, one of the things that we learned and my high school friend who's a, the pediatric hematologist, he's like, parents' intuition is actually better than what you think.

He's like, there's a lot of times where doctors, they go through their checklist or their specialty and he's like, I'm telling you, parents know in their gut. And I think Becky always knew it was something else. And I was always oh, you know, it's hives. We will figure it out. Oh yeah, it's gotta be something you're eating or it's gotta be this.

Like I was, I would say I was probably a little bit more optimistic of like, it's just something dumb that we're doing. And I think deep down she always knew that there was something and it was like, okay, yes, they said this, but it can't be the complete story. And I think we still go through that today.

\ You know, you kind of feel like you're this project manager between these doctors too, which is really frustrating

because there's no central quarterback to this whole thing. It's just like, well, these doctors do this. They did those tests. Okay, great. You go to this next doctor.

Hey, we talked to them, they said this, here's this paperwork. And then that's without getting into the whole cluster of the insurance companies and what's covered and what's not and how many times you have to up, you know, do an appeal just because it is so rare. So it's very taxing. On Becky and I, on our relationship and I.

And just our personalities and, you know, at the end of the day, like she was right. Like she, she had that motherly intuition that like, hey, this is something, I don't know, obviously we didn't know what it was but there's something else going on. And you know, just super fortunate that we were able to get it, because again, a lot of it just goes undiagnosed and, you know, many years later it eventually gets diagnosed.

But then things like hearing loss has already, you know, happened in those types of things. So, you know, hopefully we've, you know, with the treatments that we you know, we won't have to deal with those things in the future.

Adam: That's great. And kudos to Becky for having that intuition, your situations that's very similar to me and my wife. She has the intuition and I'm like, everything's gonna be fine. And it's never fine.

Ryan: it.

Adam: Yeah. Okay. So, very quick follow up. Who is responsible for giving your daughter the shot Every six weeks.

Does this rotate between the two of you or does she give it to herself now?

Ryan: No. So you know, she's six, but she's a trooper. Like she has to get blood work all the time just because even with being on the shot, they have to monitor stuff. And she just looks straight at it. You're like, look away, no tears. You know, of course they think she's gonna lose it, and she is just a trooper with that stuff.

Unfortunately because of how many pokes she's had to get. But it's a team effort. I'm usually the nurse that does the injection, she does the pre-prep with the ice and holding her down. And so it's always a team effort. It's always on the calendar,

can't forget, um, can't forget to order it 'cause it comes through specialty, a pharmacy and it has to be refrigerated and all those types of things.

So yeah team effort. And it's one of those interesting things that the doctors say like, this is gonna be a challenge when she gets older. Like, we have patients that just say like, we don't wanna do it. You know, teen stuff,

Adam: Oh yeah.

Ryan: you know, that like, and I didn't even think about that.

I'm like, really? And they're like, yes. Like, when they get old enough to do it. Like you gotta make sure.

so it's been pretty straightforward you know, doing the team version

Adam: Well, that's good. Sounds like something that you and Becky do align on and agree on. What's something that you and Becky don't agree on when it comes to parenting?

Ryan: So I am I'm loud. and, I grew up, my dad was loud of, I kind of knew, right? Like if he's loud it's done. Like it's serious, like, like just stop. And I reacted well to it. So that was kind of my playbook if I'm the loudest person to the children. And she's not that way.

She's just like, they're shutting down, they're not listening to you, and you're loud, and now you just upset everybody. And so I think that's probably like the biggest one. And it's just my reaction. And usually it's like bedtime, like I'm. You know, we've both had a long day. I just want them in bed automatically.

If there was something that just taught children to be like, oh, it's eight 30 and to bed I just run out of patients and it's not a great thing. But that's, I would say that's probably our biggest divergence from parenting. Is is decibel level.

Adam: Ryan, you and I have so much in common, especially as it relates to bedtime and patience and I, I don't know about you, but my kids' bedtime in the summer now has been just slowly creeping later and later and later,

Ryan: Oh yeah. We, so we actually just got back from Michigan. We were up in Michigan for three weeks.

Adam: Oh, nice.

Ryan: you know, it was we were doing some lake hopping with the family and. Yeah, like their bedtimes where, you know, 10, 30,

11, And they start school in two weeks down here in Georgia. So it's like, now we gotta reign it in.

Which is really hard.

Adam: Oh yeah. Go cold Turkey on the bedtime, like

Ryan: That's right.

Adam: you know, that's interesting. We start we start in early August and I thought that was early. You basically start at the end of July, very early August. So That's wild. , so, I wanted to talk a little bit about just some of your personal perspectives on parenting and some of the sacrifices and stuff that you've had to make.

So I'm curious what is something that you have had to give up when you became a father?

Ryan: Like when I get rolling on something, I cannot stop. I. And so if it's like yard work, it's like, okay, I, I mowed the lawn. Oh, I'm looking at the bushes, I'm gonna do this. And it just goes and goes.

Same thing, like cleaning the house. And there's a lot of satisfaction in that 'cause it's like immediate gratification.

And I can just go and I can go after a long week of work or a long day at night. Like, Becky's like, I don't know where this energy come from. And it, it is just been in my d n a, like, it's just, and that's tough as a dad. Like you just want to be you want to be able to do that and you can't, like there's stuff that's happening, like they need something, you know, someone needs to be taken somewhere else or they need to have lunch or they need to do this.

And I think that's like the biggest thing that I've had to give up is like my way of approaching these things has had to change over time and I still struggle with it. You know, it's like, Hey, you said you were going outside to. Trim the bushes. Why is the whole yard manicured? And it's four hours later And I'm like, well, why did you not come out two and a half hours before that?

You know, and same thing with like laundry and those types of things. Like it's so tough, but it is something like I've really had to kind of give up that crazy focus on stuff. And I think with, with work too, you know, I think in previous lives just, you know, long, long hours without breaks and lots of travel and stuff too.

And I felt like every time I traveled one of my kids was puking, like, at the airport, you know, getting the text. Hey, hope you have a great trip, by the way, your kid is vomiting everywhere. so, you know, balancing that whole thing out , and finding the right type of culture and company where that works.

Like, I think that's like a thing you have to do. You just can't go 12 hours a day and, you know, come home whenever the hell you want. And you know, those types of

Adam: The traveling with the vomiting kid, I feel like for years if either myself or my wife would go outta town, one of the children would get sick. It was inevitable. You could like set your watch to it.

Ryan: Oh yeah, It was like before takeoff or after, or landing. When am I gonna get the call or

Adam: yeah, I wonder if it's like a secret child strategy to like get the other parent to come back, you know, or something. So, I wanted to stay on that point about sort of balancing and this idea that like, you also have to be present for your kids. and so I'm just curious how you feel about the idea of, you know, startup hustle culture.

You know, obviously that's a big thing that they talk about in the Bay Area, , kind of where I'm located. Maybe it's a bit different out in the Atlanta tech scene. But I'm just curious how you've how you've balanced that, because you also strike me as someone who's very hardworking and derives a lot of satisfaction from work.

Not that you don't derive it from home life, but how do you find the right sort of like tightrope to walk?

Ryan: Yeah. It's challenging because I am very driven and I'll just go, like, Hey, I'm gonna check an email in four hours later. I'm. You know, getting into something. But I enjoy it though. That's a piece of it is I can get sucked in and I think you know, the hustle culture, you know, I go back and forth and some days I'm just like, oh gosh, it's so much bss because you get burnout.

And by the way, you know, you look at the statistics and you're like, damn, like 90% of these companies don't even make it. You do all this and at the end you're like, you know, you're burnt out. You're angry, and then you gotta go and do it again. But I don't equate that to hard work.

I think like you said, like I, you know, I had a paper route when I was 13 years old and, you know, papers had to be delivered no matter if it was, you know, I can remember having a t-shirt, coldest day in history in Saginaw was like negative 50 something and we still deliver papers. Um, But you know what I think I learned from.

My family, you know, kind of watching my dad and like be a full-time lawyer and a full-time factory worker, is that on the weekends he didn't know work, like zero. And of course this is mostly before email and computers and a lot of that, but it was like our time, like we were with him, we were doing things in the morning, you know, you'd take us to school.

When we would be back from school before he would leave for that hour, it was like with us. And so I think that's the thing is like, how do you intertwine it? And certainly with technology it's been great, right? And we can, you know, be at home and and take a video call and those types of things and we can be at the office for an hour or two if we have to.

And so for me it's kind of like threading that, like being present, like, Hey, I gotta go to a swim meet. But like if I have to get something done when they go to bed, I'm gonna spend an hour or two at night to knock it out. And that's been my balance versus the kind of, 60, 80 hour work week, no breaks in between, you know, type of things.

And I also think like, listen, there are times that you have to do that stuff but it shouldn't be a hundred percent or you just burn out. Like I've met very few people that at some point, especially when they have children you gotta figure out that balance.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. My last question is about mistakes. And I ask every dad on the pod this, because we've all made them, I have an entire newsletter series on failure stories for professional failure stories, right?

So these are personal ones. So what's a mistake that you've made as a father and a lesson that you've learned from that mistake?

Ryan: I think the one that I probably make most often is I feel they're older than what they are. I feel like the brain maturity should be older and there's just times, and I think what it dawns on me is like, the mistakes I make is when you look at the previous year, you know, like the school picture and you're like, oh my gosh, they were so young.

And you're like, yeah, but that was only a year ago. , they're still so young. And I think that's the biggest mistake is just you know, assuming they have that maturity and that logic and stuff like that, and we know they absolutely do not. Um, and so like the stupid shit that they do and the, you know, the things that where you're like, why would that even make sense?

And I think that's like the mistake I make most often is just assuming they understand that stuff, assuming they've built up you know, that Rolodex of things that they understand in life. And that's what's really tough, right? You just you assume, and then they don't know.

And then it, you know, spirals into frustration and then you're like, I, why am I frustrated? Like when I was that age, I was doing just as stupid things in different ways.

Um, And probably getting into a lot more trouble. So, you know, I think that's probably like the biggest theme in my life of mistakes is kind of that you know, thinking that they're older than what they truly are and having that expectation of 'em it's not fair.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah, that's a really interesting one. The making sure that the expectation kind of matches where they really are in life. And this idea of having to constantly remind yourself, they're just a kid, they're just six, they're just nine, you know, whatever. I'm, I'm 43. They're not, I have a little bit more lived experience than

Ryan: That's right.

Adam: yeah.

Okay. Cool. Well, thank you for sharing that piece of wisdom. Now we're gonna go to one of my favorite segments, which is Rapid Fire. And so, I have selected a set of about 12 questions, and I'm gonna ask you those questions in rapid succession, and I want you to respond with the first thing that comes to mind.

Try not to overthink it. So if you're ready, we will get started here. Here we go. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you have ever purchased?

Ryan: Nose Frida.

Adam: Ooh. Not the first time I've heard that. By the way.

Ryan: Sucking out burgers that you never thought that was important. It was like life changing.

Adam: what is the most useless parenting product that you have ever purchased?

Ryan: Any of, like, those automated swings, super expensive, you know, lsy to sleep. They're garbage,

they're trash, like never worse.

Adam: Okay. Did you ever drop one of your kids as a baby?

Ryan: Ye kind of, I fell asleep with her on my ch with Harper on my chest when she was a baby. And I caught her about an inch from the ground like recovering a fumble. So I dropped her, but I recovered the fumble before. Um, A big cry.

Adam: Oh, amazing. Good job, dad. Still have those reflexes. What has the favorite age been for your kids?

Ryan: I think right now and I would probably say that next year as well too, but like, it's really enjoyable right now, six and nine. Like, they just, they're fun. They have great personalities. They're like getting into things. You know, I think the other age is kind of like that four or four or five, where they're still little, but they have these, you know, you know, fun personalities and things like that

Adam: Yeah. What about the opposite? What's your least favorite age, Ben, for your

kids?

Ryan: I, you know, they always talk about terrible twos. Three was like, oh my gosh, like, Satan came out. What gives, I don't know what it was. It was like, whoa. So three

hands down, three.

Adam: The true three major, as they say.

Ryan: Yes.

Adam: yeah.

What is your take on minivans? Good, bad. Do you own one?

Ryan: I will never own one. I I'm trying to be nice about this question. I feel like I'm being baited. 'cause Becky was like, make sure you're not too mean. Like, listen, I'm a racing person. I like sports cars. Like, I can't do it. I will say secretly, we've rented one before to drive to Michigan.

It was actually, I get it. Why? They're amazing. But yeah, I can, I can't do it. I can't have one in the driveway now. I

Adam: I think it's a fine rental, but you're not gonna be able to track that thing, you know, so it's not gonna work

Ryan: You can, but yeah.

Adam: Okay. What is the most embarrassing thing that you've done in front of your kids?

Ryan: Oh my gosh. Gosh, I probably embarrass them every day in some way.

Adam: It's only gonna get worse, by the way,

Ryan: Lately I've been putting them on the spot about what I do and I think they think it's embarrassing 'cause they try to talk about it and I just press 'em on it and they don't know, they don't really understand it.

They have cute nicknames. You know, they call me Oo. So, you know, there's that. So it, I kind of put 'em on the spot in front of people if they ask. Gosh, other than that I'm trying to think. They, it takes a lot for them to get embarrassed. Oh, right Now, if I ask, this is a good one.

Right now, if I go in the room and say, Hey girl, or hey girlfriend, they hate it and I can't remember which one is the right one to use and which one is the wrong

one? But visceral reaction of total embarrassment of like, I didn't use the right run. And you're not cool dad to do

that, so No, No. Hey girl or hey

girlfriend.

Adam: That's

Ryan: That's recent. That's like within the past 30 days.

Adam: Oh, I just keep it up. It'll probably only get worse over

time. So,

what is the longest that you have gone without bathing one or both of your children?

Ryan: It was probably this last trip

Adam: Oh yeah, Mitch, the Michigan

Ryan: Yeah.

You get the lakes. I'm, we're in Lake Huron. That's good water. I, it was probably a good three or four days. I think when there were babies, Becky has reminded me like we were kind of afraid of bathing them, so it was like, until they get a little funky you know, let it go as much as possible.

'cause we just, you know, bathing little babies is just terrifying.

Adam: totally. I remember. That's a topic for a different episode, but, oh man, that one. How often do you lose in a game with them in order to keep the peace?

Ryan: Almost never.

I can't do it. I'm so competitive. Becky was like, do not lie. You never let them win. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. But it's also embarrassing 'cause they all, even when I think that way, there's this game o trio that we've gotten and it's kind of like you have, they're layered and so, they're really good at it. And I try to act like they, that I let them win and no they legit beat me. Yeah. But any other game, like there's no way, like Mario car video game does not matter. Like, I have to win. It's, it is too competitive.

It's life license for them. They can't win all the

time.

Adam: That not everybody gets a participation trophy, so I love that. What was the most difficult kids TV show that you have ever had to sit through?

Ryan: So I fall asleep to them quite often. The one that gives me fever dreams is anything with minions in it. If you fall asleep and the minions are talking, you're in another dimension that you do not want to be in it. I don't know what it is, but that thing will give you the worst fever dreams of your

Adam: Okay. All right. So , avoid the despicable me.

Ryan: the, it's like the gibberish that I, I do not, oh my gosh. I cannot put that on.

Adam: All right, have you ever finished off your kids' homework for them?

Ryan: Oh yeah. During the pandemic it was like, you know, turning that stuff in, it was like, okay, you gotta like print it out and then you have to scan it on your phone and then you gotta. Put it into the Google classroom. And after certain fights, like some of that math stuff got done, like, I was like, it's six, it's 10.

It was probably wrong too, but it was like, I, my patience was done. It was like, this is getting turned in. You had 80, 95% of it done. We'll make up for it

Adam: Awesome. Awesome. Just scribbling, you know, numbers on a piece of paper.

Ryan: Try to make it look like they're handwriting.

Adam: Awesome. Okay, last question. Because it sounds like you have a very wonderful wife. How many times have you said to one of your daughters, go ask your mother this week?

Ryan: At least a handful.

Adam: Okay. What's an example of an ask that they would make where you would say, just go ask your mother.

Ryan: Anything food related, snack related, those types of things. I. Because I feel I'm not the best person to ask 'cause I'll probably do those snacks with you. And so my head, I think of like, what can I get in trouble? Like if I tell them yes, what am I gonna get in trouble with Becky for? So if I think I'm gonna get in trouble, defer to Becky to answer it so that I can't be in trouble.

But it doesn't work that way because then it gets put back on you and say you're sitting in the room, they just asked you, you're closest, why don't you do it? So it's a, you know, fun, circular game of tag and not it.

Adam: Awesome. I was gonna say, this is great circular logic, just everyone sort of kicking it back and forth to each other until someone gets worn down and makes the decision, so love that. Well, that is a perfect question to end on. Thank you for participating and being a good sport for Rapid Fire, and thank you for your time on the podcast today, Ryan.

It was great getting to know you better and awesome to hear your stories and I really appreciate it. I think everyone's gonna love this episode, so thank you.

Ryan: Yeah, it was awesome. Thanks for having me. We had a great time.

Adam-IntroOutro: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Ryan Johnson. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review. It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Heron.

You can also stay up to date on my thoughts on growth product and parenting by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter. At www.fishmanafnewsletter.com. Thanks for listening.

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