The Historical Changes Happening To Fatherhood Right Now | Dan Doty (Dad of 3, Fatherhood Unlocked)

Dan: I think on the simplest way, a rite of passage or initiation to fatherhood is just adjusting into what life requires of you now, RIght. What I think is possible and what I get excited about is that with a little bit of community or foresight or intention around it. It can be an opportunity to really like explore your potential as a human because it is asking so much of you,

Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. In today's conversation, I sat down with Dan Doty. Dan is the founder of Fatherhood Unlocked, a company that is helping dads win at work, build deeper family connections, and thrive in relationships.

He's also a writer. a wilderness guide, and has been an inner city high school teacher. Through his work, Dan is at the forefront of the global men's movement to help dads be better at all aspects of life. His most recent project, Fatherhood Ready, is a course in community that helps prepare men for He's also a husband and the father of three kids. In our conversation today, we spoke about exciting and historical change in the role of fatherhood that is happening right now. The differences between how we were raised by our fathers, and they were raised by theirs. We discussed how the transition into fatherhood is an important initiation, or rite of passage, and how to parent in the time of both great technical and societal change.

I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Dan Doty.

Adam: I would like to welcome Dan Doty to the Startup Dad podcast. Dan, pleasure having you here today. And I think I nailed that pronunciation of your name. So feeling pretty good about myself.

Dan: Crushed it. Thanks for having me, man.

Adam: All right. Well, we're talking about fatherhood today. But first Dan, you have a really interesting professional background.

So could you tell me and our listeners a little bit about what you do here for work?

Dan: Yeah. Well, make the beginning really simple. So right now, my main offering along with the old colleague of yours, John McBride, we are building and have built a platform to support expecting and new dads with all of the practical and deeper layers of what it takes to be a good partner through this period.

So that's called Fatherhood, right? That's what I'm doing now. I'm also an executive coach. I support teams. I support leaders and CEOs. It's my day job. But yeah, my background, I'll try to do this very succinctly because it's kind of windy, right? Right after university and college, I became a wilderness therapy guide, and I spent about five years climbing mountains and paddling rivers with disaffected youth.

Male, male youth, right? So struggling teen boys and just found a calling, found a passion, found a path at a very young age myself. And that really has been my North Star through my windy career. I've also been a inner city high school teacher in the Bronx. I had a run in TV. I became the producer and director of a hit show called Meat Eater, which is on Netflix.

It's a hunting and adventure and food show. And then I was the co-founder of Everyman, which is a men's work organization that teaches and sort of brings forth men's capacity for relationship building, empathy and emotional skill sets. There's a bunch of other stuff in between. Those are the headlines.

But yeah, the North Star started as a young man really seeing behind the curtains of men's mental health from a very, very like close up point of view. And I've, been sort of tracking towards supporting that individually and familially and societally ever since

Adam: Wow. That's awesome. And there's been a lot of, I don't know if headlines is the right way to think about it, but there's been a lot talked about, like the boys and the men are not all right. Like there's a loneliness epidemic amongst many other things. And so I guess. You know, what has been kind of the most surprising aspects of your work?

And every man you're kind of working with, kids and now fatherhood ready. Are you finding that there is a growing group of folks who are like ready to kind of be open about this stuff and have these conversations, or are you still finding some resistance to take time to break through with folks?

Dan: Both. Yes. And I think to all of that, right. And I think maybe if you ask what's most surprising I think what is most surprising is still being faced with I mean, if you ask any individual in this country on this continent, if any of the men or males in their inner circle are struggling, generally you get a yes.

Let me tell you the whole story, right? You juxtapose that or sort of contrast that with the societal, let's just call it a, I don't know, freeze response or rigidity or fear of being honest about this trying to address it, right? But there's a big gap between like actually turning toward what really is a crisis of boys and men, right?

And this has been around for a long time, but yes, I would affirm what you were saying that there has been momentum building. In terms of it becoming more mainstream, more okay to talk about and I think there's been some recent voices. Richard Reeves has a great book out in the last couple of years.

And just, I guess, more of a simple, factual, less emotionally charged way of talking about it, which I think is really good news for everybody. But yeah, man, it's been such an interesting journey to be behind the veil, behind the curtain of men's lives and boys lives for really 20 years now, right?

It's 20 years since I started doing the work in the wilderness. And so I feel like I've had this really like upfront intimate, intimate connection. Portrait of masculinity in our culture, and I've, yeah, I've just been kind of like finding my way in different ways to support and express and educate all along the way.

Adam: Well, I'm glad that you're here doing that work. We need more of that. So. I'm curious, do you feel like you were always destined to do this work? Like what was life like growing up? Did you have some sort of childhood training for this that you didn't appreciate at the time?

Dan: That's a great question. You know, it's certainly is personal, right? I think just a snapshot of me as a child, and I think my familial dynamics like I love the shit out of my dad, and there was this giant gap of intimacy. And this wanting on my part of more closeness or more emotional intimacy with him.

But I didn't even know it when I was young, right? Like, as I got older, I could look back and say, Oh, yeah. But at the same time, he was there and he loved me and he was proud of me. So I had this sort of, I had my own experience of both feeling very close to my dad, but also feeling the distance between us as well.

But I don't know, was I destined to do this in some way? I mean, I was a weird kid. Like, I was a very sensitive kid. I was probably would have enjoyed being taught to meditate at a very young age, right? Like, like, I think I was in some ways I don't know a little bit outside the norm, but at the same time, I also, I found martial arts as a young man had a really strong mentor in martial arts, had a really strong mentor when I was in my teens, I worked on a pig farm. Grew up in North Dakota, right? I grew up in like tiny town farm country. I spent a lot of time with dudes, you know, and then I think. Yeah, it really was that experience right after college when I kind of stumbled into the field of wilderness therapy and literally spent five years in groups of dudes, right?

And it's just, I don't know. I think I built the muscles at that point. But it made sense, you know, that like what I was seeing immediately. Let me just tell one quick anecdote in that context, like imagine being in the wilderness of the Utah mountains of Utah and having spent, you know, 80 days with a young man and then his father flies in from New York City, goes to R.

1. I. picks up a new sleeping bag and then hikes into the mountains. In to spend 10 days with this young man, who's been doing deep introspective work and watching that dad hike into the site and like literally watching that boy's posture and body language bristle, like almost hearing the hair on the back of his neck, stand up and just feeling this tension between father and son.

But then over the course of working together, watching that tension relax and seeing those two truly find each other and express their love for each other and express the truth of what's going on with each other. That's what got me. And I don't feel like I gave the most cinematic version of that this time, but it was something in the re-finding of father and son that like, cemented this path for me.

It just, it It was so fucking powerful. Every time it happened.

Adam: There are a couple flavors of sort of men and boys in the wilderness. There's the one that is closer to what you describe, which is like reconnecting introspection, doing like, you know, work on yourself. And then there's the like warrior journey. You know, we, go hunt a thing.

We kill something with our bare hands. We like start fires and build tents and stuff like that. Like, are you balancing both of those? Do you think that both of those are necessary? Are you tend to lean more into the first one?

Dan: See, I like them both together. That's my style, right? So I actually, every year I run a couple first time hunting camps for men and take them on a right of passage and initiation to become a non hunter to become a hunter. And you know, so those introspective trips I was talking about, we also, you know, hiked 10 miles a day and built fires without lighters or matches.

And so it did integrate both. And I think yeah, there's definitely like a cultural meme about this. I don't know, rah, rah, warrior kind of, almost feels like you're playing at something, playing at a certain type of masculinity. And I think it's easy to sort of build that image. And certainly there are programs that have that ethos and that energy behind them.

But my preference is, I mean, like just take a simple backcountry hiking, backpacking trip, right? Like that is hardcore enough, stressful enough, brutal enough for literally anyone who ever does it to get your dose of, so I actually think those things package together naturally, right? The introspection happens when you're halfway up a 3000 foot incline hike, right?

Like, and so, I guess here's what I would say. My experience with men is that we have a really wide spectrum of humanity and possible experiences and possible life to live, right? And I feel like we often live a pretty narrow band of what's possible, right? A lot of men don't lean too heavily into the relational world or the emotional world, but a lot of men also don't lean very heavily into their self reliance and the different things.

So to me, it's just this like really nice wide open spectrum of possibility of experiences to sort of become accustomed to or become fluent in.

Adam: Yeah, I love that balance there too. So I want to transition and talk a little bit about your life now. Non professional life. Tell me about your family. You've a partner and you have a handful of kids. I'm curious how you and your partner met each other.

Was it on a pig farm in uh, North Dakota or out in the wilderness?

Dan: Wemet on Match.com in New York City.

Adam: Oh, really?

Dan: Yeah. 10 years ago.

Adam: That is the most surprising answer you could have given me actually based on this conversation

Dan: Yeah. We met on Match 10 years ago. I was 32. And I was in the TV world at the time in the media world. And shortly after, actually, as I was meeting her I was just planning my exit from New York I worked for 0.0 Productions, which made Anthony Bourdain's sort of TV world, and I opened uh, office for them in Montana, honestly, because all of the camera guys that I was hiring from the East Coast kept breaking their hands and feet on our shoot, so I had to go to Montana to hire mountain producers

Adam: Hire some people who could do the job.

Dan: So I just a month before I met my wife made the decision to move to Montana and yeah, we met and we quickly, we got married within nine months of meeting each other, which was both a terrible idea and maybe the only good idea too at the same time, but we moved to Montana and we yeah, we had our first child, Duke, who's now eight, I guess, like 14, 15, 16 months after that.

So we just got down to having a family pretty quickly. And I have three, we got three kids,

Adam: Cool. And they all seem to be pretty evenly spaced. They're like all three years apart from one another. It looks like you said, I think you said eight, five and two

Dan: Eight, five, and two. Yeah.

Yep. And just yesterday they got dropped off at the same school for the first time ever. So we have one drop off, which for you dads out there, it's a big deal.

Adam: Oh, huge, congratulations. That is a major milestone. So you and your partner met each other and got hitched pretty quickly and then started a family pretty quickly thereafter. You know, a lot of people go slower on that. They take a lot of time. I took, I don't know, seven years, I think, to get engaged and married to my wife.

And so. I don't know if you fast tracked many of the conversations that couples have, but what was the decision like for the two of you to start a family together? Did you talk about that a lot before getting together?

Dan: We did. And I actually think it was probably the driving force of us fast tracking the entire project. Actually, I'm really curious if there's any other guys that resonate with this, but I was just very excited to have kids. I always knew I wanted kids. And when I was in my late twenties I started feeling a little bit of anxiety.

I'm like, Oh man, like, when do I want to do this? I feel this urge to, to not wait too long. And actually I joined my first men's group in New York City. I think I was 27 and I was the youngest guy by far. And most of the dudes were late thirties or forties or even fifties. And I, I actually don't know if I ever said this out loud to them, but there was a handful of dudes in their forties or maybe like high thirties that were single, no families.

And there was something in me that when I like looked at that, I'm like, fuck, that's not what I want. Right. Like, and it I'm like, ah, shit, like, that's not what I want. So I actually moved in Brooklyn with a couple, friends of mine who had one kid and who are about to have another, because I realized I'd never held a baby in my entire life.

I knew nothing about little kid. I'd worked with teens, right? I had experience working with teens, but knew literally nothing about little kids. So I was actually pretty, you know, I was like, yeah, It was a bit of my mission at the time. Like I wanted to find a partner. I wanted to have kids. So. I met Elise, my wife's name, and she was at the same place, right?

I just think we were both so ready. And so did we have the conversations? Yes. And there were probably 500. We should have also had um, that, well, that's actually, I love that question. It's actually one of the things that we're doing in Fatherhood Ready. So we have this online course and it's, it is literally a conversation guide for expecting parents and soon to be parents and kind of empowering dads to lead those conversations or be aware of those conversations is a really meaningful thing for us and for me.

Adam: It's a really good perspective to kind of help nudge or empower dads in that direction, because it feel like societally that's often not how we think these things progress. It feels like oftentimes the men in the relationship are kind of dragged kicking and screaming into it.

Cause they're like, I gotta give up my golf game or whatever, but I know, I mean, part of the reason I started this pod. And probably a lot of the reason you started Fatherhood Ready is like, we know there are people out there that, that don't subscribe to that theory that like want to lead the charge or be involved or be part of the decision making and giving them the tools to do that is pretty important.

Dan: Not only are there. You know, men and dads that want to, what I observe is like what I would honestly, maybe this is somewhat hyperbolic, but I actually don't think so. I think we are in the midst of a truly historical human transition when it comes to parenting roles and  the mandate that is sort of bubbling up from moms for dads to really fully partner and lean in across the spectrum of what parenting requires and our dads sort of answer to that call, right?

if you look at it generationally, right, like what is happening with you and I in our homes, I'm assuming is fundamentally different than what your home growing up, but at least societally, that is the norm. And I mean, also just to take the, just the image of the birth or the birth room, right?

Like my dad was at my birth and I think that was the norm. The generation before, dads weren't even really allowed in the room

Adam: Sitting out in the waiting room, smoking cigarettes, probably, right? Like that was the thing.

Dan: But today, men and dads are primary birth partner, primary birth support. And like, I just, I want to slow that down because I want to try to emphasize how big of a fucking deal that is how huge of a shift, like, as long as humans have, as far as we can tell, as long as humans have been around, this is new.

Right. This new situation is new now. Like it's just hitting and the gap of experience and modeling and skills and even just identity on the part of dads is, it's really meaningful, right? It's a really meaningful gap. So I could envision my children. Like my boys, if they become dads which they want to, which I think is rad them having kind of having an easeful on ramp to partnership in parenting and family.

But I think this generation of us has we're kind of saddled with some substantial transitional work, right? And that's what, you know, that's what we're working to address and I think it's super exciting though. I think it's good news for everybody, honestly.

Adam: So you obviously are somebody who's helping to lead this charge in this transition. You know, and because like dad's today, folks like you and me, like, we can't go to our fathers and be like, hey, how does this work? Because they're like, oh, I don't know. I never changed a diaper. Which is actually true of a lot of like our parents, like the men never changed a diaper and it was even, you know, more removed before that, as we just discussed.

But what do you think is the driving force? I mean, you mentioned mom's demanding it, but do you think there's something else? Is it conversations happening? Society? Is it the media we consume? Like, what else do you think is kind of driving this historical change that we're seeing in this transition point?

Dan: Honestly, I think this is just a guess, two things I'll name. So one, I think that there has been critical mass of men who didn't go to war for long enough to honestly just have this space for men in general as a conglomerate to have the space to begin to come home and heal and and maybe not just war, but just like the general survival needs of humanity.

My, hunch is like, it kind of took until my post World War II grandfather and dad. I mean, again, this is not a scientific explanation, but I do think there's something about the general safety in Western culture in maybe the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s, probably buffeted by the psychedelic sort of revolution in the 60s.

And then also the second main thing I would name would just be the kind of like the fruition and maturation of the feminist movement in the past, you know, 60 years. one resource I love to name and if anybody takes it up, I think it's a worthwhile read. One of the best books to give the fundamentals of this whole situation with boys and men is called the Will To Change by Bell Hooks.

The prolific feminist author and leader and her loving portrait of how our society impacts men and boys to the negative is, I think it's necessary reading for parents of boys. So, yeah, man, I mean, it's big stuff, you know, it's big stuff and I don't know that's my sort of current best

answer

Adam: Yeah. and those are, I mean, big macro changes that are happening that had taken years, decades even.

Dan: Well, it might be tech too, man. You know, I mean, I think about this, you know, if, you know as AI and tech continues to proliferate and if it does sort of mean that we have more time, my hope is it brings more humanity out of us. And I think for dads, I mean. Humanity and fatherhood are kissing cousins.

I think, you know,

Adam: Yea and we'll talk about tech a little bit later too, but the other piece is just the world is so much more connected now that information flows so much more quickly. So if somebody is doing something, people can tap into that all around the world, like Fatherhood Ready, for example, or this podcast or, you know, any number of things.

And so, you know, there's just for better, for worse ideas disseminate quite quickly. So yeah. I wanted to ask you you described your wife Elise, you said you mentioned her name is right as a spiritual guide and intuitive. Tell me what that means. Tell me more about that.

Dan: So she practices a, I would say unknown modality called SRT. It's spiritual response therapy. And it's a method of researching and working with the subconscious. So she has a, like a counseling practice, like a you know, not like a licensed counseling practice, but a spiritual counseling practice and sees clients.

One on one and has some group programs and stuff. And yeah, man, she's a, you know, she's a gardening or earthy, you know, wild spiritual woman. And it's it's fucking fantastic. Right? I mean, we live a pretty, so we live in the woods in Maine. We moved here from California in 2020, and there's a lot about our lives that are we're at least like mainstream adjacent, right?

Like we've stepped away from the corporate world for the most part. And what I would say more than any, if I were to make one really clear statement about my wife is she is, I don't know that I could have married a better fit in terms of a parenting partner, like she is just simply a fantastic mom, like through and through.

I mean, she has her issues. I have my issues, right? We all do, but she's a absolutely fantastic mom. And you know, you ask about her career, but she's also we've really heavily invested in her being present and home with our kids these young years. So she's had to start, restart and kind of close down and reopen her business consistently for the past, you know, six years.

Adam: Yeah. And that's quite a level of effort and sacrifice too. All those stops and starts. Yeah. It's interesting that you mentioned you, you couldn't have found a better fit because. You also, again, like we discussed went from nine months to like, here's a person, wow, let's get married.

So, you know, did you have a sense of that? You must've had a sense. Obviously you probably wouldn't have gotten married in nine months, but yeah, you, you must've had this feeling that like, we're on the same wavelength, me and this partner.

Dan: Yeah. So my wife, you know, prior to, What she does professionally now. So she was a professional singer. She toured with the pop singer, Jason Mraz on some big tours. And but right before I met her, what she did is she, her dad's side of the family is from Martha's Vineyard for like, 12 generations.

And was living in LA. She went back to the vineyard to visit family and found that her grandma who was 98 or 99 needed more help than she was getting. So she moved in, she gave everything up and she became her grandma's caretaker for like 18 months. And she had done that right before she moved to New York when I met her. And so within that nine months of meeting her, we went to visit her family. And not only did I see her with her grandma, who she was a caretaker for, but also some of her cousins. And I not only had the feeling that she would be a good mom and there was something there, but I actually watched her engage with kids.

And I I honestly was just really impressed and have been ever since there was something in there that I didn't know about or have, which was, she's a really strong, she's really great at holding boundaries with kids. And it's not that I'm not good at that, but I think she, I don't know.

There's something about that that I observed early on that it was like, okay, like. She's got some skills

Adam: Yeah. So you have been a dad now for eight and change years. What is the earliest memory that you have after becoming a dad?

Dan: It's, it is just those first moments. So I remember, Elisa's labor with Duke went for a long time and was complicated. We started out at home, 20 hours. And we found out, you know, he had the umbilical cord wrapped around his neck, which he was okay the whole time, but it was still sort of tense.

The first thing I remember from like, I mean, is that the moment you become a dad when they actually come out into the air? Maybe I, I don't know, whatever that moment is, but seeing the first glimpse I saw of him was the unwinding of this umbilical cord from around his neck, which was startling. I mean, it's a startling thing to see a newborn the first time.

Also that is seared into my memory. The second thing that's seared into my memory, and I don't remember if this is accurate in time, but was like a wave of blood, like literally like a whoosh on the bed and like splashed on the floor and like splashed on my leg. And I was like, holy shit, so there's these like very visceral snapshots of the actual birthing process.

But the, I guess, like the dramatic sort of beautiful one is that I was on my wife's right side when he was born. As soon as he came out and was on her chest, I walked around to the other side of the bed and got down right over her shoulder. And I, you know, I'd been talking to him for months and I just said something like, hey man, or hey Duke, like I'm your dad.

I've been waiting to meet you for so long. And then, so I didn't know this was possible, but he craned his neck up and he met my eyes. And I like lost it. I freaking lost it. I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know they had the strength. I didn't know that was a thing, but he literally like looked up and met eyes with me, man. And

Adam: Yeah. That's so cool

Dan: That was it. 

Adam:When you think about now having three kids, one of the things I think dads don't talk a lot about, although I bet in your circles, maybe you do talk a little bit about this is the feelings and the emotions that come with becoming a father for the first time. The second time. The third time. Did you notice differences between your kids about around some of the emotions that arose for you or you know, as you kind of went along in your journey?

Dan: I think so. The first thing that comes up. Is I clearly got my ass kicked more and more with each kid that, that, you know, by life, right? Like by, by everything. And I think that when it comes to like bonding or connecting with each of the three I do think that there was a different experience.

My daughter's name is wilderness. She our youngest having a daughter was a different experience than having two sons. And again, I can make up a narrative. Like I've spent my life mostly with dudes. I didn't have a sister. You know, I had a brother, not a sister. And you know, most of the women in my life that I've been close with have either been my mom or, you know, romantic partners.

Right. And so there was something different there, but in the background, there was also a, like an intensification of panic and overwhelm that happened progressively with each kid.

Adam: It heightened with each kid. It sounds.

Dan: It, yeah it expanded. It exponentially grew a little bit.

Adam: You described this transition into fatherhood as sort of a form of initiation or rite of passage. I don't know that every dad thinks about it in that way, but that resonates with me and I'm curious what that meant to you and how you've helped dad see it in that way?

Dan: I love the timing of this question because I mean, just to frame it out, right? What a rite of passage is a either forced or natural sort of ceremony or what would you say? Just like a course of events that takes you from one stage of life to the next or one stage of maturation to the next.

Right. The reason I like answering this today is that I literally think like last week, I think I like, I don't know. I'm in the process of something happening right now. I just took a month off for the first time since I've been a dad. And part of that was like a two week meditation retreat. And honestly, as much as fatherhood has been literally the greatest joy of my life. Like I've also not been okay for the last seven years. Like, it's this paradoxical both thing, right? Like, so what I'm coming around to is like, an initiation or a rite of passage traditionally is sort of run or facilitated by a group of elders or a group within your community to really clearly appoint you as part of the community in a new light, in a new role. We don't do this in our culture, right? And, you know, what some of the old time wisdomy folks would say is that if, the community doesn't initiate you life will, right? And I think what's happening is that fatherhood is unofficially initiating men in its own wild way, and I think some of it's just simply practical, right?

Like once you have humans who you are fully responsible for, you know, things just like fall into a new way of being like you understand things differently. You see the world differently. You have to hold yourself differently. You have to manage your time differently. And you have to, like, either be forced to these adjustments or maybe be somewhat aware of them as they happen, right?

So I think on the simplest way, a rite of passage or initiation to fatherhood is just adjusting into what life requires of you now, right? What I think is possible and what I get excited about is that with a little bit of community or foresight or intention around it It can be an opportunity to really like explore your potential as a human because it is asking so much of you, right?

I think fatherhood asks or requires you to be on point with your game playing or you're doing, right? So whether that's money or work or logistics or home or whatever, it's like you gotta get it done, right? That's part of it. Another big part of it is fatherhood.

Again, it maybe it doesn't demand it, but it can evoke more connection, more ability to be present more facility with our ability to give and receive love, the being side of life, the relating side of life, the eulogy part of life that you want to do.

So I think fatherhood is a crucible that there's no better accountability system for our own maturation and growth in my opinion, because it's like every single day my kids are reflecting and absorbing who I am and I can turn a blind eye and like not pay attention and not see how I'm hurting them or not see how I'm whatever, or I can take the feedback and use it as a, as a lever to grow from

Adam: Yeah. And that gets to a point that whenever anyone turns the question around and it's like, what's the most important, you know, piece of parenting advice you would give someone not that I've mastered this by any stretch, but I always talk about modeling behavior and what you just mentioned around your kids absorbing and watching and you know, you could, turn a blind eye to that or you can lean into it. That kind of gets back to that single piece of advice that I always have for folks.

Dan: Yeah, man. Parenting is not a cognitive activity, right? We could read. We can read books and think we're doing things a certain way, but how we show up and who we actually, and you can't fake that shit, right? You just can't fake it. Who you actually are is what's programming your child's life, right?

Adam:Yeah. So in Fatherhood Ready, you mentioned you're kind of helping prepare people for fatherhood, prepare people for the arrival of a kid, maybe even just getting into the right frame of mind around becoming a father. And so that likely is, filled with lots of advice and lived experience and things like that. And to, if you could rewind the clock to, you know, eight in change years ago, before you had Duke what advice would you have given the younger Dan around this journey that you're about to go on?

Dan: A bunch of practical stuff. I would have like sat myself down and said, listen to me, dude, like there's some things you need to take care of. It's really funny, right? So we have a baby prep planner that we offer as one of our simple products. And it's just like exact, you know, like there's a kind of a joke in the world, guys, just like, tell me what to do, right?

Give me, give me a list. so we made one. Right. So it's 45 things you need to do before baby comes. 66 products that we've vetted that, you know, like go, just go buy them. And then a packing list for the thing. Right. But so I use that as an example, but what I personally would have needed, did need more of was nuts and bolts, right?

I mean, maybe you can tell from my answers, right? Like, so my life has been about deep spiritual inquiry and adventures in the wild and human connection and all this, and I've been able to make a living off of this the whole way, right? But. I was not educated, aware, or prepared for the weight of home, finance, work.

Just all of that, and it's not the language that I'm fluent in, naturally, right? And so I would have been like, dude, save some, pardon my French, save some fucking money, get your stuff in order, right? And that's what we're finding, right? Working with dads is that it really is like a Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Like, if you don't have the basics in place, the, like what you're talking, the modeling behavior, the being present, like you can still do it, but man, it's 10 times harder. Right. So, and that's what I needed. That's what I, that's what I would have benefited from immensely, you know.

Adam: On the flip side of that. Is there a piece of advice that you got from outside that if you could go back in time, you'd tell yourself to completely ignore?

Dan: Man. Nothing comes to mind. The best advice. I'll tell you the best advice real quickly was to take three plus months off. And that I listened to and I pass on everywhere I go. I think that was just, The best advice I could have ever got no, no, I don't know, man.

Nothing. Maybe. I don't know, I guess just generally anybody's opinion on feeding or and I, we didn't take it to heart, right? So like we did home birth and, you know, I guess just the more hippie route of birth and parenting, but there was definitely plenty of advice levied that I just kind of I think mostly we just shrugged it off.

Adam: Yep. Yep. This is a bit of a pivot, but what's your favorite book to read to your kids? And has that changed with each subsequent kid?

Dan: Man, I would say since moving to Maine, my favorite is, oh man, what's it called? It's about this fisherman and his pink boat, the Tiddly Italy.

So it's a story about a kind of like a poor, funny, quirky fishermen who has a boat that barely works and he goes out on the ocean and a whale comes to him with a boo boo on its tail. And so he puts a bandaid on its tail and then he gets eaten by the whale. And then. He lights a fire or something in his belly to get spit out and then he comes back and there's and like 100 whales and they all want band aids or something.

It's wild. it's like a very far out, adventurous. It's fun. It's a lot of fun. We like, actually we have a tradition of telling stories, right? So we I've, I write fiction and I've written fiction and just, I love to make up stories too. And that's been a tradition we've done with all the kids.

And so probably. At times we would do it every night, probably now it's once or twice a week, but right now all three kids are sleeping in the same room. So I'll start a story, make up a character and a time and a plot, and then we'll take turns going around the room and like pushing the story a little bit further and a little bit further.

And man, that's just like, that fulfills me to the ends of the earth and we got a couple of them three or four, we've got one called the cactus pile that I would love to actually turn into a kid's book because we've now told it probably 250 times.

Adam: Wow. That's awesome. Great fodder for a future writing you know, I know with Fatherhood Ready, you got a lot of practical advice for people. I don't know if you're also like a frameworks guy. I talked to a lot of tech people and that we love our frameworks in tech.

So I don't know if you developed any particular frameworks or guardrails for parenting?

Dan: Well, yeah, you're probably sensing I'm traditionally not a super framework guy, but john McBride, my business partner is uh, much more of a framework guy. And I would say what we've developed to date that's basic and simple and really functional is framework of our fatherhood ready course, which is the prep course.

And so it's split into basically three main modules, right? And so the first module is like basically the bottom block of Maslow's hierarchy. It is like, what do you need to know? What do you need to do to be a great partner during pregnancy? A great partner during birth and a great postpartum partner, right?

So it's just like, get informed, dude. That's sort of line one. Line two is invest in your relationship and your partnership in preparation. And so we have a full on module that has the conversation guide and tips and tactics to really strengthen one's relationship which I think, and we think is there's just a lot of, there's a lot of space in that.

That's a really critical thing that, you know, the first it's the, what is it? The first either two or four years of baby's life has the highest rate of divorce actually when babies come and then when they leave the house, those are the two times statistically that most divorces happen.

So investing in the relationship and taking lead on strengthening that is module two. And then the third pillar, a third module is self reflection and inquiry that would be, you know, how are you parented? What are your values? What's your vision for yourself as your dad? So that's a little bit of the initiation, self initiation route there.

So that's, you know, I would say that, qualifies as a framework you know, we need to learn and get up to speed on what we need to do and then invest in relationship and invest in self is kind of like the playbook to start with

Adam: Love that. Speaking of investing in your partner, we've talked a lot about how Elise and you are a really good fit for each other. And partnership is super important when it comes to parenting. But on the flip side, I also know that it's hard to agree a hundred percent of the time with your partner.

Is there a particular area where you and at least, Don't agree or don't exactly see eye to eye?

Dan: We're pretty close, man. When it comes to parenting. I mean, there's some things that I, you know, I go along with and kind of have to take a deep breath on just like, I mean, just two days ago, if we have to have water bottles for the kids at school every day. All right. And it's just they lose them and they're stashed places. And it's always, it's like, we don't have enough water bottles. My mom just sent us some water bottles for the kids but Elise stacked them and said, okay, these are for donation.

You know, we don't use plastic water bottles. And I'm just like, fuck, like, yeah. Okay. I'm like, okay, but we just got enough finally. Right. Like, so, so like there's little things like this. You know, maybe I would take them through a fast food drive through like twice a month, but she would be once, right, but not far like that.

We're not far. But when it comes to like, education and just house rules and things like that, we're pretty damn aligned. We're pretty aligned, man.

Adam: Yeah. That's awesome. So we're living in a really interesting time. Not only this kind of transitional like phase that society is going through with men and fatherhood but also there's a lot of technological change happening right now. You mentioned AI and you know, that's a coming wave.

It's becoming a big part of the zeitgeist and the conversation, at least around parenting circles and school and things like that, how do you think the role of parenting and fathering is going to change or may already be changing in this time of AI and all of the social changes happening around us?

And to us.

Dan: yeah. I think it's that moment of like, holy shit, it's changed already. It is changing, but we can't quite nail it down as to where things are necessarily. You know, I think it's hard to. Answer that without first just briefly addressing the last, you know, 12 years, 14 years of social media plus smartphones and what that change has done because I think, you know, now we have some data back on what that has done to our kids and what it's doing to our kids very clearly. And it's hard to, I actually, I brought together about a hundred parents in January of this year. So what is that nine months ago and just had sort of an open forum around AI and parenting.

And it was really eye opening and you know, what I got from that is parents are really concerned and scared. And there's different camps, right? There's the, like, we're into whatever AI tutor system, and we want to give our kids the best, you know, knowledge access that anyone has ever have and I can't fucking wait. And then you got people who are like, I actually might go off grid and never see you again, you know,

Adam: Yeah. Yeah.

Dan: And I would say my wife and I, you know, we're right in the middle there of, I feel like really over indexing on nature time and human connection and like good, healthy practices of living, you know, in addition to, I don't want my kids to, to not have access or not be fluent in that world because, you know, it does seem like that is the world that's building around us,

Adam: Yeah.

Dan: But it's hard to say, like, I tried to take in enough viewpoints around this to, to not go down any rabbit holes too far, but I do personally have strong concern about the world of you know, personal AI tutors and where that can and would go in terms of having a potentially outsized impact on shaping our kids that could supersede family and parents. I do have some concerns about that. I don't really know what to do with those concerns, other than stay as, I don't know, up to date and grounded in it.

And actually one of the guys on the call who is at Google for a long time and actually what he shared on that call was even more frightening. He's like, listen, you guys are scared about AI, but you know, what's coming behind AI is, you know, 10 magnitudes beyond AI and like, just fucking wait, basically, he's like, you're, he's like, you're sweating the wrong things.

It's like, oh, geez. But he did have a practical tip that I really took to heart, which was any tech that comes into your home as a parent to fully engage with it along with your kid and not just sort of pass it off for them to engage with without knowing what the fuck is happening right without actually being and that really landed for me and so it's been a practice this year if we get a new app or whatever it is to make sure that I'm taking the time or my wife is taking the time to really know what's going on so that we're not just being a pass through mechanism.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. That is really solid advice, and it might take you longer. Kids pick up stuff really quickly, but to educate yourself. So you at least know how your kids are spending their time, what they're consuming, what they're looking at, you know, all that sort of stuff.

That is a really solid piece of advice. Have you felt like you've had to give up anything to become a father? I mean, I'm sure your priorities have changed. Obviously, we talked about that.

But what's something that you, like old Dan, pre kids Dan, just doesn't do anymore? That post kids Dan does?

Dan: One main thing which I kind of alluded to when you asked me about the initiation question was two weeks ago, I went on my first eight day meditation retreat in six years. And consequently, I feel more myself and feel better than I have in probably six years. That's one thing. I started meditating when I was in my mid to late twenties and was very, very devoted.

It was a very, very big part of my life. And, and it remained so, it's interesting, I just recently got the clarity about this, but, you know, when Duke came, first kid came, I kept up a pretty strong practice was pretty tied in, and then Jude came and it was probably, I don't know, fell by 50 percent and then when Wilderness came and had three kids, I pretty much just stopped.

I really kind of lost the thread for quite a while and was aware of it. And, you know, it's like, oh, this is interesting. You know, this is different. But over time, yeah, definitely lost that you know, my whole, sort of spiel at Everyman and we're talking with men. It was just like helping and teaching men to connect with each other and not be isolated.

And but I've also just naturally found myself more isolated as each kid has come along. Plus the pandemic. Yeah, this last couple of years of three kids plus pandemic and post pandemic. Yeah, man it's been more lonely than I've ever been used to being, honestly. So yeah, friendships, fun.

Adam: You have to actively work on that stuff, right? Like it just doesn't keep happening. You have to like fit it into the crevices, you know? That's really interesting. And then it also kind of dovetails and we've talked about this and there's a lot written about this, but you know, we're more connected than ever, but also more isolated than ever.

Dan: Hollow.

Adam: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I probably know the answer to this question, but what are some of the ways that you recharge your batteries or center yourself? It sounds like that meditation retreat was a much needed one. Are there other things you try to do on a daily or weekly basis to kind of center?

Dan: Meditation for sure is having that retreat and then sort of refreshing my daily practice is a big deal. I have the world's best IFS therapist internal family systems therapist. That is just a real important weekly touch point for me to have someone and somewhere to go to really get into things.

I, again, along with the meditation, I was sort of re upping my daily yoga practice or leaning back into like a daily yoga practice. But I also go to the, I would try to go to the gym three or four or five times a week and either swim or swing kettlebells or do different things. And you know, for me the like active self care.

A lot of times feel like it just drains my battery even a little bit more. So what I found for myself is really to like take care and be okay. Things like quiet time alone time in nature. Meditation are what I personally require to like keep my baseline okay. The, I mean, I need to work out to stay healthy and be okay and all that, but I've just found for me that the output of energy I mean, I don't know if it's like for you, but man, my days are 16 hours.

You know, it's like a nonstop thing from kids waking up to kids going to bed. And so I just need that real restorative focus for myself.

Adam: That makes sense. Last couple for you. What would you say is a mistake you've made as a father? 

Dan: I’ll tell you one yesterday is My temper just like leapt out of me yesterday. My middle son Jude was there's this combination of like not listening and talking back that has like peaked recently. And man, I was just I thought I was in a good place. I thought I was in a good mood. I thought things were all right, but it just like, you know, zero to a hundred man, just real fast.

And sucks. It sucks. Like I'm a big dude and I'm a loud dude. And like when that happens and I see him like. Shaking like it's just fuck. I hate that. So, I mean, that's a small one. A big mistake I made was how I handled and mishandled myself and decisions with the launching and creation of Everyman that, so I didn't really say this, but I got fired from my media job the month after my first son was born and lost like a substantially strong income without really preparing, and then like kind of wildly launched a men's retreat that turned into Everyman right after. And I had never been entrepreneurial before. I had no trust in myself there. And then just didn't trust myself or didn't know how to trust myself to set things up in a way that would have worked.

Cause, what happened was a business on the outward side that got a lot of press and a lot of attention and made little to no money. And so I put my family through a pretty rough couple of years there of trying to piece things together. And meanwhile, like doing my passionate best work in the world and then needing to need to sort of scramble to make ends meet was confusing and yeah, not ill intention, but certainly had a lot of repercussions.

Adam: I want to go back to the thing that you mentioned about yesterday, like losing your temper or What do you do to recover and repair when that happens? Because it happens to all of us. I don't think there's a dad on the show who hasn't alluded to something like that happening to them.

And so I want to talk more about the recovery aspect and maybe even the recovery aspect from that couple of years that you put your family through with Everyman and like all the kind of change and chaos and stuff there.

Dan: With the recovery from the temper, I mean, if I just describe it was I caught it real fast, you know, it didn't take me too long and immediately knelt down and I dunno, I probably said something like, hey man, that was way too big, way too out of line. I can see I scared you pretty bad.

I'm really fucking sorry. I probably even said fucking I just like I am really sorry. And you know, he came in and got a hug. We gave a big hug, but then I also, looped back at least once, maybe even twice or even three times just to sort of like reaffirm the, my bad, like not okay, not cool.

I don't think I like overstressed it in an unhealthy way, but I don't know ate crow, you know, like really like try to get really clear that it wasn't cool and then I don't know, you know, attempt to appropriately say, hey, you know, the, like the talking back thing.

Like it's super gnarly and hard to, you know, so like try to address both sides. I guess the repair for the big, long mistakes I've made I don't know. It seems like it's a ratio of twice long to repair like the amount of time, something like that, you know, one of the things I did was just really cut back on work travel, like it's a waste, like substantially, right? That was one of the parts that was really hard with that was leading retreats and I was gone a lot and honestly the pandemic was a real blessing for our marriage and family. Cause it just put a halt to it for awhile.

And then I kind of hung with that halt, you know, just like, yeah, it's humbling to, you know, in some ways be very plugged into to being a dad and identifying with it and trying hard at it, but also yeah, make some like substantially harmful maneuvers along the way. And yeah, just sort of doing my part.

You know, another big one, I guess I would say is as aware as I've tried to be about sharing the workload with my wife and like supporting all of the things. Like actually I'm going to re answer a question that like, if I would tell myself one thing it would say, get the hell up at night with your wife, with the baby.

And I, like, I flubbed that one for quite a while. And that's at that might take I don't know that we'll recover from that one. Honestly.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing these mistakes and your attempt to recover or your recovery from them. So, I wanted to end and ask you, Dan, how can people follow along or be helpful to you on your journey?

Dan: Yeah. Thanks, man. You know, we're on Instagram. Our social media is mostly on Instagram. It's Fatherhood Unlocked is our handle. We have weekly newsletter we have a website fatherhoodready.com and a website fatherhoodunlocked. And just to name it, you know, we're doing is we're starting with expecting dads, right?

We have some resources to really help fix acute problems. We have our big comprehensive online course, but where we're headed with all this is a community, right? Like there is such a actually, you know, you, you mentioned it in our conversation here about how like we can't go to our dads about, you know, questions about fatherhood, right?

So we really have to turn toward each other, you know, so like, it's like, either do this completely alone or what, right? And so the, or what that we're working toward is really building a community of fathers. And so, yeah, you can support us by being aware and, you know, sharing these new resources with expecting parents and expecting dads.

And honestly, just sort of like leaning in to this not fully fleshed out movement. I think that is dad's really, you know, stepping in and stepping up and doing our part in I dunno, our families as things evolve. You know, and I think we have a wait list started for the community.

So if there's dads that are you know, vibing here and keen to get in touch with each other and get in touch with us, like there's stuff coming down the road where there's going to be a community for dads to get together.

Adam: Love that. And I'm sure many, many people who listen to this will be interested to get involved and be part of it. So thank you, Dan. Do you have a few minutes for our lightning round?

Dan: Absolutely. Let's Okay.

Adam: Simple rules. I ask you a question. You respond with the first thing that comes to mind. It's a judgment free zone.

We move on to the next question. All right, here we go. Finish this sentence. The ideal day with my kids involves this one activity?

Dan: Swimming in a river.

Adam: All right. Which one of your kids is your favorite?

Dan: Wilderness.

Adam: The youngest one always wins, by the way, this is true. What is your go to dad wardrobe? 

Dan: What I'm wearing, a black t shirt and sweatshorts.

Adam: Similar. Except today I'm in blue. Have you ever pretended to be asleep to avoid a middle of the night wake up?

Dan: Uh Huh.

Adam: He says very quietly. Have you ever secretly thrown away a piece of your kid's artwork or maybe not so secretly?

Dan: Oh, lots of them. Yeah.

Adam: What is your favorite kid's movie?

Dan: Moana, by far.

Adam:Oh, good one. There's a sequel coming out.

Dan:I know, I'm super excited.

Adam: Me too. What nostalgic movie can you just not wait to force your kids to watch with you?

Dan: Oh, we just did it The Princess Bride.

Adam: Oh, love it. One of my all time faves.

Dan: We're gonna be, we're gonna be characters for Halloween, the whole family. We're gonna do a whole ensemble Halloween

Adam: I love that. Are you going to be…

Dan: Fezzik.

Adam: Okay, got it. I love that. Princess Bride is a great one. I used to go to my grandparents house and they had a bunch of movies on VHS tape, and that was one of them.

And I would watch that. Every time, multiple times I went to their house. So, our kids also love that one. And finally, you have three children, but you do live in the wilds of Maine. What is your take on minivans?

Dan: Oh, we have one. We have a great one. We have a Chrysler. Hybrid, plug in. 

Adam:Excellent.The Pacifica?

Dan:Yeah. Yeah. It's rad.

Adam: Yeah. We got team minivan over here. Love that. It's a very polarizing topic. So, I'm glad to hear you're on the, you're on the bus or the minivan rather. All right, Dan, thank you so much. That concludes our rapid fire lightning round. I so appreciate you coming on the show today and we will link to all of your things, including Fatherhood Ready, which I hope a lot of people who listen to this become a part of.

Dan: Thanks Adam. Great to talk to you.

Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Dan Doty. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify. It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Harron.

You can join a community of 11,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth. product, and parenting by subscribing to the Fishman AF Newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter. com. Thanks for listening, see you next week.