The Unhappy Achiever Paradox | Mike Yan (Dad of 1, Co-founder/CEO, Manychat)

[00:00:00] Mike: if you think about being a trainer, do you want to do like a whiplash type of situation where you just put so much pressure and like, try to craft those diamonds while you break, I don't know, nine out of 10 people.

And then maybe like you get one diamond out of it, but that diamond is also going to have its internal conflicts and all the things that are going to be allowing for that talent to be exposed. But my philosophy is a bit different. I did not want my kid to be an unhappy achiever.

[00:00:34] Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. In today's conversation, I sat down with Mike Yan. Mike is the co-founder and CEO of ManyChat, a profitable, Series B company building chat and automation tools for over 1 million businesses.

Mike has been working on ManyChat for nearly 10 years and recently welcomed his first kid into the world. In our conversation, we discussed a wide range of topics. At the center of them all was the decision to start a family as a founder with a fast growing 250 plus person company. We covered how he prepared for paternity leave and was able to take off seven weeks after the arrival of his son.

Advice he'd give to founders who are considering starting a family themselves. How becoming a dad has changed him as a CEO. And navigating the disruption of changes in child care. I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Mike Yan.

[00:01:46] Adam: Welcome Mike Yan to the Startup Dad podcast. Mike, it's a pleasure having you here today. Thanks for joining me.

[00:01:54] Mike: Hey, Adam. It's great to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

[00:01:57] Adam: All right. Well, we got to know each other through your work building ManyChat, which you have done for at least nine and a half, 10 years, as far as LinkedIn reminds me. So I am curious. Tell me a little bit about ManyChat and how did you get started building this company?

[00:02:15] Mike: Sure. So we started back in summer of 2015. And we were Telegram users, which is a messaging app. At that point, it was much smaller than it is right now. Right now it's over a billion users. At that point, it was around 50 million. And they opened up APIs for messaging automation for businesses and people.

And since we were users, we thought that allowing businesses to have better conversations over these messaging kind of applications is going to be the next frontier of customer communication. So we started building ManyChats, which allows businesses to have conversations across social and messaging platforms like these new channels where all the attention of the customers is and, now we're here, nine and a half years later, do you want me to kind of do some stats around the company or,

[00:03:03] Adam: I would love to hear it because you know, you and I worked together what, you couple of years ago, maybe and I worked with your team and that was really fun, but I'm sure the business has gone even bigger since then. So I'm just curious, yeah. How big is it?

[00:03:17] Mike: Yeah, so we're right now over 250 full time folks across six offices around the world, kind of, we have Austin, London, Amsterdam, Barcelona we opened up last year, Brazil, so Sao Paulo and we have customer support setting in Armenia, Yerevan, so, business is profitable growing last year, grew kind of two X on kind of, already kind of some, scaled numbers. So really happy about the whole thing. And in the most recent news we've opened up TikTok as a new channel. So now people who are using TikTok to connect with their customers, publish videos can automate those conversations over TikTok. And for meta channels, we are the fastest growing platform on WhatsApp and the number one platform on Instagram in terms of the number of accounts connected and the amount of volume that we're driving.

[00:04:12] Adam: Wow. That is amazing. Congrats on all that success. And ManyChat is like, you know, I know you now have a kid, which we're gonna talk about in a sec, but in many ways, like, ManyChat's kind of your baby, right? Like, it's the thing you've been working on forever. It's your first company, and now working on close to a decade.

Pretty, pretty amazing.

[00:04:33] Mike: it's actually not the first.

[00:04:35] Adam: I didn't know that.

[00:04:36] Mike: Yeah. so, I've started like several others when I was finishing university and ManyChats was if we remove kind of all the kind of side projects or like the smaller things would be the second or third.

[00:04:50] Adam: Wow. I had no idea. But probably the most successful of all of the things that you've worked…

[00:04:57] Mike: For sure.

[00:04:57] Adam: on. So Mike, I'm very curious about what life was like for you growing up. Where'd you grow up and what were you like as a kid?

[00:05:05] Mike: Yeah. So I was born and raised in Moscow. And as a kid, I think I was very Playful and curious and that's how I think others would describe me. For example, when I was, I think in the first grade and we started learning the local like language, you know, like with a turtle that goes and turns and like the pen goes up and down and it can leave marks.

And so when I got introduced to that I actually ended up making kind of like a, a book for my classmates with all the different kind of challenges, like around logic and math. And basically it was fun. So I thought that would be fun for them too. So those types of things. And when I was nine, we traveled to US for the first time.

I, I studied at a public school in, near Chicago. And yeah, so that was kind of the, the initial phase. And when I was in high school, I really got deeper into coding and development in general. And so, so that's kind of actually was the first time I was introduced to kind of computer and tech was probably around six years old when we had like, a desktop Pentium 2 or something and then had a Quake 2 or something. And that was kind of the first introduction. Heroes of Magic and Might 3, those types of yeah, that has developed into that interest, but I also really got interested in psychology when I was around 13, 14 years old.

So really interested in understanding how human minds work. Kind of, why do we do the things that we do, what motivates us, what brings meaning, what brings happiness and really got deep into that and actually ended up majoring in psychology. So, at that point, nobody really understood like how I'm going to use that.

And my dad is an entrepreneur himself. So initially I was supposed to go and study economics and management. And after like half a year of that, I'm like, this is not interesting. I think he thought that like, okay, this kid is not going to follow his dad, like in terms of the entrepreneurial endeavors but actually end up the opposite and I actually think psychology sits at the core of everything we do in business.

It's all about people. It's all about relationships. It's all about understanding how people make decisions. Like psychology is at the center of product design, product management, marketing, sales, investor relationships, fundraising, building partnerships, building a great culture, because everything is made by people.

So, that's kind of a quick story.

[00:07:51] Adam: Oh, that's amazing. And so your dad, his disappointment turned into excitement as you've now built a 250 person company.

[00:07:59] Mike: Yeah, I would say so. Yeah. I don't think that he was disappointed, honestly. I think he is just was, he was not sure about that decision. Because at that point I was thinking that, okay, I'm going to go study what I'm really interested in, which is psychology. And also I was interested in magic.

So I was learning just regular kind of card magic. And I thought I was really passionate about that. I would sit in front of a mirror for like five hours straight, like practicing some specific move and seeing it from all the different angles. And I thought that I'm going to be a magician and my dad didn't say kind of, you shouldn't do that. He said, hey, if you think about this path, what you should probably do is talk to some other folks who've taken it and ask them, like what their life is like, do they kind of appreciate that choice? Like, what they would kind of advice, give to you, et cetera. And I thought that was a great advice. So I actually reached out to some stage magicians and people who were kind of doing just magic shows for like groups of people and asked them about, they actually replied and I was like, hey I'm a student. I'm thinking about this.

I want to talk to you about kind of your life. And they actually replied. So we had a few conversations and didn't deter me in anyway. I'm like, okay, this is going to be totally fine. I'm going to make it kind of, one or two thousand a month. This is going to be more than enough to kind of sustain myself.

And when my dad said, hey, maybe you should think about, like, at some point you're going to have a family and like, okay, I'm just going to do twice as many shows and then maybe I'll earn, I don't know, 3,000 a month and that's going to be enough for me and the wife and the kid. So, that was the logic.

[00:09:42] Adam: Yeah. And so when you went from magician to building software. 

[00:09:45] Mike: Well that was actually the first project. The first project was I learned how to do it. I started performing, then I saw the bottleneck was my time. So I said, okay, I will not be able to scale my time. How do I have kind of more fun doing this and kind of scale the operation. So I started teaching offline.

So I would gather people kind of offline, teach them kind of how it was basically like a one day workshop where I would kind of tell them how to do this and how to present it and the theatrics and the secrets and the moves and the technique. But, then it was like, okay, we got to do this offline. It's also not scalable.

Like, why don't we take this online? And so I started to shoot videos, which were kind of explainer videos. And I would use YouTube as a marketing channel and perform the trick. It was, I think, like 2009 or something and I think one of the videos was you know, going into like hundreds of thousands of views, et cetera.

And then, like, in 2009, that would be, like, right now, there's a lot of folks who are, who could get to kind of those types of numbers like 2009 was a bit different. The audience was much, much smaller and that would kind of create that organic interest. And that would be directed to like the place where you could buy this content.

And that was probably the first business I wouldn't have considered like, like a super real business, like there was no funding, there was no employees, et cetera, but it was something that's got into.

[00:11:10] Adam: Yeah, yeah, your first real foray into entrepreneurship.

[00:11:15] Mike: Yeah, it was like an online version of a more evolved lemonade stand.

[00:11:21] Adam: All right. The reason that I invited you on the show is because you and I were exchanging some emails a while back and you. Took a little bit of time to respond to me, which is pretty normal, right?

And then when you did respond, you were like, hey, I just had a kid and I started paternity leave. And so I was like, oh, I gotta have you on the show. So, tell me about your, family now you have a son. And a wife and your son's eight months old, just turned eight months,?

[00:11:47] Mike: Yes, exactly. So, he was born this summer last summer and he just recently turned eight months.

[00:11:55] Adam: I'm always very curious when, co-founding a company, and you're the CEO of, ManyChat, like, that's a big job. And you've been building, like you mentioned, you have 250 employees. It's a big responsibility, And so then at some point, there was a decision to start a family, right?

Is probably a conversation that you and your wife had, and I'm sure that it came up. How are you going to be the CEO of a company, start a family, which can be very demanding, you know, there's sleep implications, there's time commitments. So I'm, I'm curious around what the conversations were like, or the decision making process that you and your wife went through.

[00:12:32] Mike: Yeah, so, we were having these conversations kind of on and off, like, we've been married for almost 10 years now.

[00:12:40] Adam: Congratulations.

[00:12:41] Mike: Thank you.

[00:12:42] Adam: Same age as ManyChat.

[00:12:44] Mike: Yeah, actually it was interesting that we got married like literally in a few weeks after we've started working on ManyChat.

So, those two events kind of really aligned. And we'd been having this conversation about having kids on and off for kind of all this time. And it was just never really. Kind of a real push towards it because when you're starting a company, that's where your attention goes and starting a family and having a kid, I think you need a lot of attention to really internalize that decision and make that commitment and start trying.

And for us it was like that. It wasn't something that happened and we just kind of rolled with it, which we would be totally fine with. Like if that was the case, that would be kind of probably also great. But for us, it was more like, all right. It seems like the company is doing well enough and we're going to have kind of the necessary time and we're going to have the necessary kind of circumstances to start a family, kind of, and bring somebody else into this world.

And we made a decision, we started trying and it wasn't all smooth sailing but in 2023 everything happens and we were monitoring, like it was a very, as you know, like it's a lot of stress.

And once you know, the stats, like I'm a very kind of given my work, a lot of it comes not only from intuition and understanding kind of the market and talking to customers, but also looking at a lot of data and when Sasha got initially.

When we confirmed the pregnancy, I was like, okay, so what are the rates for it actually going kind of full term and you have all the calculators and like, okay, this week the rate goes down significantly. And then it was stressful, but also if you focus on just supporting each other, I think you get through it just fine.

[00:14:43] Adam: Yeah. And now you have a happy, healthy, probably sleeping better, eight month old son,

[00:14:49] Mike: We did sleep training at around six months. So prior to that, he wasn't sleeping. He was waking up like several times at night asking to be fed. And we were very much fine with it until like three months. So first three months, he was fine. He was sleeping, maybe like waking up once at night, but not really requiring a lot of holding and rocking and, but from three to six, there was this period where we also started our first nanny and maybe there was just a coincidence. Maybe those things were related, but he started waking up several times at night and he wouldn't just go back to sleep after being breastfed that he would require to be held for 20 minutes on a fitness ball and to be bounced back and forth and were fine with this and we thought, hey, maybe this is just going to pass, but when this was happening for three months, like by the end of December my aura resilience score went from I think it's like strong or it went basically from the four out of five to like one out of five.

[00:16:03] Adam: Oh no.

[00:16:04] Mike: to the limited. Because like you're waking up three times every night and then like one of those times you have to do like a workout for 20 minutes and then go back to sleep. And so at some point we were just completely like, it started to affect the way we kind of interact with a baby. And like, that's now starts to affect kind of the whole family.

So we weren't really sure about sleep training and like, doesn't seem like a good idea from the outside, you're like, I'm going to be a very attentive parent. I'm not going to kind of let the baby cry too much, et cetera. But then I talked to a bunch of people who actually did it.

And like, no, it's totally fine. Like I've had three kids and like, they all are great. We have great relationships. They're like really confident. And after having like several of those conversations with people who've had multiple kids who've done kind of sleep training with all of them and also reading an healthy amount of Reddit posts and stories and also going really deep on the white papers and finding all the relevant literature and all the studies, we’re like, okay, it seems to be, it's going to be fine.

It feels like more of a decision on the side of the parent. So we actually ended up doing it. It was super, super hard for us. I think it was even harder for me than for my wife because she saw the process and it was really hard for her.

It was like heartbreaking to like, not go in immediately when your baby's crying she really trusted the process and she was like, yeah it's work. Like, I understand how this works and she was okay with this. And I was having doubts. I'm like, is this like, is this, should this be happening? Like I was always questioning the sleep trainer.

We had a great help from an expert, but it turned out great. Like after a week, Mark was able to sleep through the nights and we've basically kind of this time to actually have some deep restoration ourselves. So we were more attentive during the day we could provide kind of better environment for him. And he was feeling better because he was not kind of waking up and he was actually getting the rest and he started sleeping during the day more. So not only did he start sleeping through the whole night, he used to have like three short naps, like 30 to 45 minutes and then it turned into like two naps, but one of them is usually like more than an hour.

And the other one is like 45 minutes plus. So, like, the overall system just became, I think, much more balanced and everybody was feeling better. Right now he is having kind of like, there is usually sometimes there's like some sleep regressions that happen. So he was going through that last week.

But again, right now he seems to be doing much better.

[00:18:51] Adam: And has the aura ring score recovered? 

[00:18:57] Mike: Yes it did, it actually did! 

Adam: Awesome

Mike: And when he started sleeping worse, it actually started going back again, so, it never kind of reached the worst possible level, you know?

[00:19:04] Adam: Yeah. I'm really curious because when we were exchanging emails a long time ago you had said, Hey, I'm just now going on paternity leave. And I think that was around like September ish. And he was born in the summer. So, you know, it sounds like maybe you gave it a few months. I'm always curious because this comes up a lot when I talk with founders.

And I see people struggling with this decision, which is how do you think about taking time off as the co founder of the CEO, the like head honcho of the company. And so I'm just curious what your thought process was there, how much time you ended up taking off and kind of what you did to prepare the company for you being, being off.

[00:19:47] Mike: I'm very fortunate to have a really great exec team and I could leave for probably like a few months. And everything is going to be good with the company. I can rely on them for this to happen. So, when Mark was born, I actually ended up taking a few weeks right after the birth to help Sasha with the initial weeks.

And then her parents came over to help out for a few months. So that's when I actually got back to working because she had the support of the grandparents. But after they left, I took the kind of other half of the paternity leave and I think in total it was around seven weeks.

So it's a pretty kind of significant amount of time. And for me family kind of is the kind of number one priority. So building a great business is very, very fulfilling and you can help a lot of people, but, it's hard to help a lot of people if you're not kind of taking care of the most immediate kind of environment and most immediate people.

So I wanted to make sure that that is set up properly. And at the company we, we have this policy. So like, it's not just the CEO can take this time off. I think for the whole company, I think we have eight weeks.

[00:21:05] Adam: That's great. That's really great. When you were thinking about your own paternity leave, were you having conversations with your board? Were you preparing them? Like how much did you have to lean into like talking to those folks, your executive team, like, was this kind of like a discussion or was this a, I'm going to do this and let's just prepare for it.

[00:21:29] Mike: Yeah, it was more of the latter. Like with the exec team, as soon as you know, if we were at the mark where we were talking about this publicly, I approached my exec team and said like, hey, this is happening this amount of time. Like this is the window where the delivery is probably going to happen.

And from that point on, we have to be ready. So they kind of had the time to prepare for that and in terms of the board, it was the same situation where it's like, Hey, this is where it's going to be happening. This is where the paternity leave is going to happen.

And you just want to make sure that you prepare it in a way where the company doesn't kind of skip a beat because of this. So, taking this on proactively is very important. But yeah, we did that from early on.

[00:22:16] Adam: That's great. It seems like it worked out well too. And you have a supportive exec team and a supportive board, which is awesome.

[00:22:23] Mike: Yeah, we do. We do. We've been very mindful of like how we partner with folks and like who we bring on and how we build those relationships.

[00:22:31] Adam: That's good. So if you could rewind the clock to, you know, nine or 10 months ago, right before your son was born and you bumped into a younger. And maybe slightly more naive, Mike, slightly less prepared Mike, what would you tell Mike from a year ago about becoming a dad, balancing, being a dad and a founder, what advice would you give yourself a year ago?

[00:22:56] Mike: That's a great question. I would say probably could have done I think sleep training really changed the quality of life. It was, that was like a specific moment where like the system has reorganized. Maybe that could have been done like a month before. So that's like a incremental improvement.

But I think there is a bigger thing that I would talk about, which is thinking more and paying more attention to your loved one to your partner. Because we were like right in the middle also of raising uh, series B and that took a lot of attention to actually make that happen.

So like you have the final, you know, months of the pregnancy then you have, a new person coming into your life. And then all of that is happening while there is like this big push on the fundraising side. And I think at that point I didn't fully realize how much of a toll just physically the pregnancy takes on the body.

I would say if I'm doing kind of this, reflection, I think that I did a really good job up until the pregnancy, but I think that when the kind of the product launch happened,

[00:24:18] Adam: Yeah.

[00:24:20] Mike: Especially like, I think like after like a few weeks after and when the parents have arrived, I spent less time thinking about Sasha and just like, because I also started working again, the parents have arrived. I went back to work and I would just do more of that because it's not just like everybody's, it's great that like you're both new, newly minted parents, but, the person who delivered the baby kind of all like had a very, very different experience and supporting them is very important.

[00:24:50] Adam: Yeah. That's a fantastic advice. And just a reminder to all the startup dads out there, like take care of your partner first. Yeah. Cause it's a lot.

[00:24:59] Mike: It is. It is. And if you think about this a system, like helping your partner helping the family it's all interconnected. It's not like you're sacrificing anything.

[00:25:13] Adam: Having gone back to work as a new dad, would you say that becoming a dad has changed you as a CEO or changed any of your perspectives that you maybe held before?

[00:25:26] Mike: Yeah. I would say it's evolving and it's just having a kid overall changes you as a person. In my experience, like I can talk about myself, I think it changes different people in different ways. But for me it's about growing a certain kind of patience and care. 

And a lot of times business is around, setting ambitious goals and driving people towards achieving results, et cetera. And I think that's very important, but I think overall, the question is, what do you want to bring into the world? Like, what type of achievement do you want to bring into the world?

Do you want to bring achievement at all costs? And that is sometimes could be destructive for the people who are building that and for yourself. Again, like I don't see this as separate from like a CEO being separate from the company I think that. The overall mentality and the overall energy kind of expands into and shows itself.

Or do you want to drive achievement through certain kind of nurturing and growth into that? Like if you think about being a trainer, do you want to do like a whiplash type of situation where you just put so much pressure and like, try to craft those diamonds while you break, I don't know, nine out of 10 people.

And then maybe like you get one diamond out of it, but that diamond is also going to have its internal conflicts and all the things that are going to be allowing for that talent to be exposed. But my philosophy is a bit different. I did not want my kid to be an unhappy achiever.

[00:27:05] Adam: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:27:08] Mike: So, so you want the person to grow into their potential and to grow into their talents, but you want that to happen in a way that is coming from a place of care.

[00:27:19] Adam: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that description, the unhappy achiever. I don't think I've ever thought about it that, in that way. That's really, really fascinating.

[00:27:30] Mike: You want them to be a happy achiever.

[00:27:32] Adam: No, totally, totally. But I, you know, I never really thought about like, that is a mode that somebody could be.

They could be an unhappy achiever and that's not a great way to live.

[00:27:42] Mike: And I think a lot of the culture is about that. A lot of the culture is very violent towards oneself. There is the fun grinding and there is like the unfun grinding. The fun grinding is when you're in the flow, you're so excited and you're fulfilled.

And then it doesn't create this internal conflict within yourself. And the unfun one is where you feel like you're not enough. And if you come from a place of anxiety and fear and then you just spread this into your work and you start making decisions and like everything that you do is fingerprinted with your values and with who you are. There is a saying like how you do anything is how you do everything. Right. So, it's in the limit, but I think it, it carries an essence of truth. You don't have to decide.

It's not a one thing or the other you can have both. And I think if you do not settle for just achievement or for just like, because there's two polarities, right? Just doing only the things that you would like and like having no discipline, having no kind of internal strength and ability to overcome things.

But it also did the other polarity, right? And how do you build this strength from a sense of being loved and being enough. So I think that's a very important. You don't have to choose between these two things. It's like the Rubik's cube. Like when you're solving a Rubik's cube, like it's easy to solve like one side.

Like a lot of people can solve one side. The hard thing is to solve like all six sides, because when you're solving all six sides, it feels like you're unscrambling other sides, but if you do things right, you can actually achieve that.

[00:29:26] Adam: As a founder and a dad, do you ever have to remind yourself of that? Like kind of tilt the balance one way or the other. And what do you do when you realize that you need to get out of one mode and into a different one?

[00:29:43] Mike: Yeah. Well, wouldn't say like there's one mode or like there's two modes and you switch between them. I feel like it's more like driving or. Like going down the hill on a snowboard or a skiing it's that if you're in the moment and you pay attention to what is happening, then, you know, if you need to turn a bit left or turn a bit right.

[00:30:05] Adam: Mm hmm.

[00:30:06] Mike: Right? It's when we get into these frameworks and these.

Kind of dogmas when like, you have to always be like this. It's like saying like, you always have to turn right. No, like it's, you're going to be always turning right. Then you're not gonna,

Adam: You go in a circle.

 Mike: yeah, you're going to be, that's a good one. Gonna be driving in circles, which is actually true. It's exactly what's going to happen.

Or you're going to drive into a wall. You just, I think we come back to like this, this whole question of being present and being aware of what's going on in the moment and not looking for easy solutions and for easy answers and being responsive to what is coming up in this specific moment.

And sometimes you need more structure. Sometimes you need more funds. Sometimes you need more care and if you, if you pay attention to what is happening, the right thing will come up. When you're trying to use these shortcuts where like, this is how it should be always.

Well, maybe you're right 80 percent of the time or 90 percent of the time, but then you're going to struggle with the other 10.

You have to have certain flexibility of ideas and a certain flexibility of your skill set in terms of communication, in terms of your actions, to be able to initially kind of assess what is needed right now and then be able to actually execute on that.

So, so being able to be soft where you need to be soft, be kind of firmer when you need to be firmer, I think is very important.

[00:31:32] Adam: Speaking of flexibility, this actually brings me to my next question, which is maybe more about adaptability than flexibility. When you and I connected even to schedule this, this show, you mentioned that you were starting to look for a new nanny. And you even brought this up before we started recording.

We don't have a nanny for our kids now. They're quite a bit older. But I remember having to do that and how disruptive it was. Every time there's like a child care transition in the house. And when you have to figure that out, it's very time consuming. It's like hiring a new employee, except this employee comes into your house every day and spends time with your kid.

So it's like pretty serious. And I think you also mentioned you were prepping for a board meeting at the same time. So you've got nanny search, board meeting prep, you know, probably not sleeping all that much. And so, you know, I know that a lot of this is new to you because you haven't been a dad for all that long, but I'm really curious how you've navigated those kind of intense periods of parenting transition, like when you lose a child care worker in your house and you have to find a new one, like that's pretty intense.

People don't talk about that, but it happens a lot and it's uncomfortable and it, I mean, reality is it sucks. And so I'm just curious how you've navigated that, how you and your wife have navigated that together. You know, while still gotta pay attention to being the CEO of a company.

[00:32:57] Mike: So what happened with our first nanny was the chemistry wasn't fully there. Like we've been kind of with her for about two, two and a half months. And it just wasn't kind of getting to the place where like everybody felt like super comfortable, super relaxed and the energy was flowing.

And so that's why I've kind of, we decided to transition, and then we actually spent a month without a nanny and we were looking for one, but we also enjoyed very much spending kind of even more time with our son. And so that was, we took advantage of actually that transition period.

And we've hired a lot of people, but I haven't hired a lot of nannies.

[00:33:41] Adam: Yeah, totally.

[00:33:43] Mike: I cannot say that I'm really good at it or like that I have any good pointers in that respect. I think we're still learning. You know, there's, as with any hire, like you're looking for that kind of perfect person that would check all the check boxes for you.

But usually it's not like that. Usually you have to kind of give in certain places. And for us, I think we were doing really well right now. She has started several weeks ago and those weeks have been going kind of really well and so, for us, it was the combination of just paying like when this is happening, what I think the meta answer is that what I've realized is that with the child, that's always going to be changing. There is like, it's never gonna, like you're waiting for this moment where at some point like your life is going to come back and then you're going to have all the free time that you used to have, et cetera. And I think that's, again, I don't want to sound like negative but I think it's just the life has changed and that's the reality and you are going to be always now thinking like, is my child doing well? Are they sleeping well? Like the first time they get sick, like you just think that, oh no, like they're gonna, they're sneezing and coughing and you feel like they're dying and, but it's just a cold.

And it's just not being kind of resistant to those changes and letting those changes happen. And I think we're coming back to that. I think one of the actionable things would be creating the necessary buffer of free time and free energy and free attention to be able to handle all of those things.

What I started doing is I'm just taking kind of less commitments saying less to any types of requests that are not kind of critical and really trying to simplify the schedule so that there is this free resource that we can tap into when kind of the child needs it or when the partner needs it.

Yeah. So I think that's something that I've tried to do very proactively. I think the challenges arise when, like, any time when we would be like having an argument with Sasha, it always comes from a situation where both of us do not have the energy and the resource to stay in the context, oh, we're actually in this together. And like, this is not your problem. This is not my place are like all of the problems are our problems, tight?

[00:36:25] Adam: Yeah.

[00:36:26] Mike: So if both people are down on their kind of energy and how they are feeling and, and being stressed out, then, people see each other as separate.

And that's what creates this. But if somebody has insights to actually remember in that moment, oh, actually, this is what's happening. All right, let's take a step back. Let's actually reframe this whole conversation. And like, we're still having the challenges, but like, let's just not talk about them like we're from opposing camps or something.

So, yeah, I think that's very important. And that allows us to resolve, at ManyChats we actually have the third value that we have is called winning together. So if people start to talk about each other or like departments as if they're separate entities, then we're like, Oh, stop.

We're not continuing this conversation in this type of setting.

[00:37:22] Adam: Yeah.

[00:37:24] Mike: We have this whole organism and sure. Everybody has their own job and everybody has their own kind of focus areas, et cetera. Let's talk about this. We all want the same thing. We all want to help people have better conversations.

We all want to help businesses grow. So let's figure out how to do that best. And same thing with the same thing with the family and actually same thing with internal dialogue there is a therapy kind of approach, which is called IFS internal family systems.

And it kind of has the same type of approach where it's like you gather all the different parts inside yourself which usually have different motivations. One wants to like go and have fun. The other ones to achieve. The other one wants to just relax. And in IFS, they're called subpersonalities, but usually they're referred to as parts, but you can think about them as just different perspectives and different competing motivations and kind of, I almost see them as like these neural kind of complexes, like these neural nets that are like trying to push the overall system into certain direction. And they, then if they're not aligned, then there is like, you feel. This conflict within which, usually a lot of energy is spent on that.

But if you actually create that alignment, then everything becomes much easier.

[00:38:45] Adam: Sounds like you're drawing from some of your roots in psychology there.

[00:38:49] Mike: Well, yeah. Again, everything. Relationships with your partner, relationships with your kids. Everything comes back to people and their minds.

[00:38:57] Adam: Yeah. Speaking of relationships you have built an entire career now in technology, right? Starting with hobbies, like filming YouTube videos as a magician. Right. And now you're building a company that supports people who are living their lives on the internet, creators, you know, small businesses, things like that.

When you think about your son now and I think probably over the next 20 years, as he's growing up, there's going to be a lot of really interesting technological change and pull. How do you think about the relationship that you want your son to have with technology as he starts to get older?

[00:39:38] Mike: That's a very, very hard question. 

[00:39:41] Adam: That’s why I ask it.

[00:39:42] Mike: I feel like every parent, like right now our son is too young to like have any devices. But already, like when we have FaceTime calls with grandparents he would be like reaching for the screen and like trying to hold the phone. And whenever like we, let's say I play something on the computer, like a YouTube video, et cetera, like his attention instantly goes to the screen.

The picture is changing. The audio is there. And it's something that is very, very captivating. And my wife is like super worried. I'm like, she's like, no screens, like just screen police. And she grew up much more into sports and much more into just physical movement.

And I was much more into technology myself, as I've mentioned. Like, I've had my first computer around six. Which would be similar, right? like having a screen I don't know, like when do babies get kind of the iPads probably even earlier right now, like some parents who don't have enough time and don't have kind of, an ability to have nannies, et cetera they want to do something to soothe their kids.

And like what we found, like, for example, when we went to a trip to Yosemite and for him, he was about six months at that point. And we tried to navigate it so that the most of the time she would be sleeping, but like, it's still a four hour drive.

And at some point he was, especially on the way back, there was like this last, like 40 minutes where nothing was helping and like, even when we stopped, when we put him back into the car seat, he would still start crying. So the only thing that helped to console him was just to show him like, we found like this very slow, non, flashy old cartoon.

And we used that as a tool to kind of get back so that he just doesn't cry like a maniac for the last 40 minutes. So, I can definitely see that as a, as like a this painkiller type of situation. Right. Like the question is how do you manage the overall, like when it's not that controlled, when it's like actually like the person getting their own device and like how you manage the screen time, etc. For me personally I've had a lot of fun growing up with computers. We didn't have smartphones at that point, so it would be only desktop. So there is a certain degree of less accessibility.

You cannot be like, well, you could be on the desktop for your whole day. Once you're back, like before school and after school. So that's what's happened with me when I was around like 10-11, I would be on the computer all the time, but that also has led to kind of getting interested in coding, knowing how kind of computers work so that makes me more okay, like there should be some technology. I think the difference right now is that technology became a bit different from what it was back when I was using it because it used to be like a hobby, when I wanted to build a website, I learned HTML and when I was doing the flash, I was doing like these movies, these cartoons and flash, and then I learned action script to like help me like build games in flash.

And, Like I felt it was very developmental, right? Because it was almost like a toolbox to build things with. It was much less of a mindless type of activity, right?

[00:43:07] Adam: Yeah.

[00:43:08] Mike: But also I played a lot of games. And I think games again, like I think there's different types of games.

There are certain types of games that really develop certain skills. And I played the usual suspects like I played Starcraft. I played,

Adam: The strategy games and things like that.

Mike: But I also like, first person shooters like Counter Strike. And then at some point when World of Warcraft was released I think on the first day when on the launch like I had to like buy a CD key kind of, abroad to like, so they send me a photograph of a scratch CD key because you couldn't purchase them directly.

Anyway, so, that really kind of motivates you to achieve. Like you have this level system, you have a plan, how you're going to level up. You then have a strategy around that. And also like joining guilds and having this social interactions. And then also like a lot of Dota which is also kind of a really interesting type of approach.

So again, this is a very long winded answer to your question, but I think that I'm going to be trying to optimize. so definitely. I'm not going to do both of these extremes, like no screens. I don't think that's the right choice. And I think like just unlimited screens is obviously not the right choice.

But then the question is, like, I want to build a relationship where Mark sees technology as a tool to express himself and as a tool to like, where this is going to… like nobody had to work with me to, like, for me to start building games, right? Like, and to get interested in that. So I'm wondering, can technology, especially with the advances in AI, can technology become the greatest teacher that is going to be very interactive and very kind of leaning into the interests of the person and aligning all the examples and all the explanations around those interests so that they're drawn in and how can we use technology like technology is always a double edged sword. So how can we use technology to help children develop deeper and have more excitement around the things that are going to be helpful to them instead of just creating this black hole where their attention is going to get sucked into. So I think it's not about the technology itself, but the specific things that the child does with the technology.

Adam: You know, I've heard other dads come on the show and talk about you mentioned that technology being a toolbox, right? And it was for you. And this idea of it being a tool versus kind of a passive mindless toy. It sounds like there's a notion of action or sort of activeness that you want for your son, as opposed to just being a passive consumer.

And so I think that's a good approach. And probably a good thing for us to end on, which is awesome. So thank you for sharing that. I wanted to end and ask you, how can people follow along or be helpful to you or ManyChats? Like where should I send people after they listen to this episode?

[00:46:07] Mike: I don't do a lot of social, I do consume. I think my number one would be probably like YouTube. But I don't do a lot of posting at this point. I might start later on, maybe in a year. But right now, if people want to just get in touch, they can either.

Send an email to mike@mikeyan.com or get in touch with me over telegram @Mikeyan on, Telegram. So it's pretty easy to remember.

[00:46:36] Adam: And of course, if they're interested in they're building a company, building a small business and they want to use a tool like our technology, like ManyChat, I will send them that way as well.

[00:46:46] Mike: yeah, for sure.

[00:46:47] Adam: Awesome. Okay. We have just a few minutes left for a lightning round, which is my favorite.

Here are the rules. I ask you a question and you give me the first answer that pops into your head. It is a judgment free zone. I might laugh, but there's no judgment because every parent does what is necessary for them. So, are you ready?

[00:47:11] Mike: Yes.

[00:47:12] Adam: Okay. Mike, what is the most indispensable parenting product that you have purchased thus far?

[00:47:19] Mike: Wipes.

[00:47:21] Adam: What is the most useless parenting product that you have purchased?

[00:47:24] Mike: Like some toys that Mark doesn't play with.

[00:47:27] Adam: Yep. True or false. There is only one correct way to load a dishwasher?

[00:47:35] Mike: Yes. Yes. There's the, the only way the…

[00:47:39] Adam: Love that. Do you and Sasha agree on the correct way to load the dishwasher?

[00:47:44] Mike: Yes, yes. It's completely standardized.

[00:47:48] Adam: Amazing. Amazing. Have you discovered your signature dad superpower yet?

[00:47:54] Mike: Yeah. Making strange sounds that Mark reacts to and that distract him from crying.

[00:48:01] Adam: Good, that is an important superpower. What is the crazier block of time in your house? 6am to 8am, or 6pm to 8pm?

[00:48:12] Mike: 6 PM to 8 PM. Definitely.

Yeah. Yeah. Witching hour. And like, it's just babies. Just tired but still wants to do baby stuff and really doesn't want to the whole thing to end.

[00:48:27] Adam: I get it. I get it.

Okay, so I know Mark can't talk yet, but if Mark had to describe you in one word, what would it be?

[00:48:34] Mike: Probably fun.

[00:48:35] Adam: Okay, good. Good. What is the most frustrating thing that has ever happened to you as a dad so far?

[00:48:43] Mike: Well, maybe one of those nights where like Mark has woken up several times and maybe not just once required him to be rocked to bed, but like several times being rocked to bed, at some point, you're just like already too tired to do anything.

[00:48:58] Adam: Multiple 20 minute sprints of exercise in the middle of the night. Do you now have a go to dad wardrobe or attire that you wear?

[00:49:08] Mike: No, no it's always, it was the same and it's continued to be the same and pretty kind of t shirts and either sweatpants or jeans, depending on if I'm at home or if I'm going out. 

Adam: So the startup uniform still applies not that you’re a dad.

Mike: Yes, it's very, it's very, it's very universal.

[00:49:27] Adam: Versatile. Okay. I love that. How many parenting books do you have in your house?

[00:49:33] Mike: Five or six, but I don't think that we've read any of them,

[00:49:37] Adam: That was my next question. So that answers that. Have you tried any baby foods yet? And if so, which one is your personal favorite?

[00:49:48] Mike: Pear puree.

[00:49:50] Adam: Pear puree. Alright. Sounds delicious.

[00:49:53] Mike: Yeah. I love his, his like the baby oats. They're also great. And like when we do both pair, like puree. Plus oats, like it's just. It's like, I'm going to eat the whole thing myself.

[00:50:08] Adam: Like a delicious dessert for you.

[00:50:10] Mike: Yea, exactly.

[00:50:11] Adam: What is your favorite kids movie?

[00:50:14] Mike: I'm not sure if it's my favorite. It's just the first one that comes to mind is do you remember Lilo and Stitch?

[00:50:20] Adam: Oh, yes. Yes, totally. There you go. What is the worst experience that you've had so far assembling a toy or a piece of children's furniture?

[00:50:31] Mike: Honestly, everything that we've assembled was pretty good. Like the hardest thing was probably like we've had several changing tables and like one actually came prebuilt, like we, it never happens. Like, like the whole thing is just like ready to go.

I'm like, oh, interesting. But yeah, the second one we had to build and it wasn't, honestly, it wasn't really frustrating. It's just like your standard type of Ikea exercise.

[00:50:59] Adam: Don't worry. You'll get there. You'll find a frustrating piece of furniture at some point. Prepare, prepare yourself. How long can a piece of food, maybe one of those delicious oats, sit on the floor in your house and you will still eat it?

[00:51:14] Mike: We're not at that point yet. Like, he's eight months, so he's eating everything is, is just mush, so.

[00:51:23] Adam: No mush from the floor then.

[00:51:25] Mike: Yeah, so we don't, there's not a lot of like, he's pretty careful with it, even when he tried to do the, like the thing where he, it's like with his hands, et cetera, he's still like the whole seat was like, and like the whole thing was a mess, but there was not a lot of things on the floor.

Like it was just like everything, his whole hands and face and like the seat itself, it was just all in this.

[00:51:47] Adam: Very courteous kid that you have there. Not dropping things on the floor.

[00:51:50] Mike:  I don't think so. I think it's…

[00:51:54] Adam: He used his face to catch all

[00:51:55] Mike: Oh, actually he, yeah he would drop like the spoons. Like he would try the spoons and he would drop it. And then, but then, yeah, I would eat that spoon. Like just clean it. It would be fine. It's not an issue.

[00:52:07] Adam: All right. Two more questions for you. What nostalgic movie can you just not wait to force Mark to watch with you?

[00:52:15] Mike: These are new parents' answers. Like for me it's, I just want to watch the Matrix with him.

[00:52:22] Adam: Oh, yeah.

[00:52:24] Mike: I wouldn't say it's nostalgic.

[00:52:26] Adam: No, no, it is.

[00:52:28] Mike: Well, well, it does, Matrix is one of those, like, it seems to age so well, it's so timeless, like, in terms of everything, and yeah. So I just want to see his reaction and, and, I just want to watch, like, all the mind bending movies, and see how he reacts to them.

Like the everything The Truman Show and The Existence and The Game and all the other ones.

[00:52:54] Adam: Oh, yeah. These are all great. These are all great. Okay. Last question for you. I know you only have one kid and you do live in San Francisco.

Mike: Palo Alto.

Adam: What is ,Oh, Palo Alto, sorry maybe that'll impact this answer, but what is your take on minivans?

[00:53:12] Mike: Not yet.

[00:53:15] Adam: Okay. Okay. That's, you're not ruling it out, but just the not yet.

[00:53:21] Mike: Yeah, well, well, I think for us, you're talking to, like, I, I think that it changes over time, but at this point at eight months, we're like, this is enough, this is like, we have we're feeling the pressure and like,

[00:53:37] Adam: Yep.

[00:53:38] Mike: So let's talk in a year or two and see where we are.

[00:53:41] Adam: See if you need a minivan.

[00:53:43] Mike: Yeah.

[00:53:44] Adam: All right. Well, Mike. I know your time is super valuable. So I am so appreciative that you joined me today on Startup Dad. And we will tell everyone who listens to this to go check out ManyChat. Thanks very much for taking the time. I really appreciate it.

[00:54:00] Mike: Thank you, Adam. I had a great time.

[00:54:02] Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Mike Yan. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify.

It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Harron. If you're a startup founder, leader, or just wanna get better at your job in tech as a growth practitioner, product manager or executive, you can join a community of over 11,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth and product by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com.

Thanks for listening. And see you next week.