Tidy Up Your Life | Tyler Moore (Dad of 3, TidyDad, Elementary School Teacher)

[00:00:00] Tyler: Mental clutter and physical clutter often go hand in hand, but if you don't have an acute sense of why the mess is triggering you in the first place, you are just going to throw strategies against the wall to see what sticks and like, we do this all the time with like our professional lives that it's like we don't understand why work is triggering us or why we're so overwhelmed.

So what do we oftentimes do? We just try to like work more hours and work harder or like, you know, try to see if we can just throw time at that problem

[00:00:33] Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. If you've got kids, you know that one thing seems constant in life. Mess. Keeping a clean and organized house feels like an impossible task.

As someone who struggled with this, especially when our kids were younger, I wanted to help others by talking to an expert on being tidy and keeping an organized house. Who better to talk to than the Tidy Dad himself, Tyler Moore. Pushed to the brink of a breakdown after the birth of his second kid, Tyler went on to tidy up his mind, his life and his house. Now he's built a massive following as Tidy Dad and recently published a book called, Tidy Up Your Life. Which immediately became a USA Today bestseller. He's been featured on Good Morning America, and in the Washington Post, New York Times, New York Post, Better Homes and Gardens, Apartment Therapy, and many, many podcasts, including HGTV.

He still teaches elementary school in New York City and lives in a five room, 750 square foot apartment with his wife and three daughters. In our conversation today, we talked about Tyler's journey from breakdown to best selling author. We dove into many of the frameworks in his book, How to tidy up your mind, then your space, the one area a weekday method. How to involve your kids in the tidying process. And the concept of surthrival. If you're struggling with staying organized and tidy in your house, you're going to love this conversation with Tyler Moore, a. k. a. Tidy Dad.

[00:02:19] Adam: I would like to welcome Tyler Moore to the startup dad podcast. Tyler, I could not be more excited about this conversation we're about to have. Thank you for joining me.

[00:02:31] Tyler: No, thanks for having me.

[00:02:32] Adam: So Tyler, you are a teacher turned bestselling author who also still teaches and in your book, which is called, Tidy Up Your Life.

You dive into a topic that I think feels like a foreign language to a lot of dads. Which is keeping a clean and organized house. And so I am curious what inspired you to get started on the Tidy Dad journey?

[00:02:57] Tyler: Yeah. So, you know, It's part mess, then part like everybody loves that like redemption sort of arc or where like the superhero can come to save the day. But I feel like really my story started with a huge mess. Like I was a mess in terms of my professional life. Personally, we had two young daughters. I had transitioned from being a teacher to a school administrator because I thought, why not take on more positional responsibility as we're like growing our family, right? Because that goes hand in hand where you're like, I have now all of these needy children at home, so now let me take on even more needy people at work.

Because, you know, that's what, that's what sort of dads were, that's what I sort of thought that, that dads were supposed to do, like you're supposed to want to pursue more positional power so that you can bring in more money to care for your family. That's sort of like what you do. And so I did that and then had a huge mental health breakdown that it was like this questioning of what am I doing with my time?

What am I doing with my energy? So I started therapy. Then I took leave from my job. So I decided because they had passed a new family leave law in New York state that I was like, okay, I'm eligible. Let me take time away from my work. I had never done that before, like I had never, it felt wild to admit to people that I was taking time off from my job.

While I was on leave, the governor's office contacted me because I was one of the first men to take advantage of this leave in New York state. And then they posted a video online and all of the men were like, dude, like, stop crying, stop complaining, like, get back to work. That's what you're supposed to do.

And they were like, women, like, don't look for someone like him as your partner. And that's when I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like there is more to this conversation here because. You know, newsflash like men also have a mental health journey like we, we have lots of feeling and so that sort of inspired me to start sharing about how did I tidy up my professional life?

How did I also take on more responsibilities at home? What did it look like? To cook and clean and care for my children, what did it look like to just sort of push back on some of the stereotypes that exist about men, and the roles that they play within the home. And on the flip side of that, the roles that women play in the home.

I was like, I think that there's a way I can speak into this, while just authentically sharing like, who I am. 

[00:05:43] Adam: Yeah, I love that. The story you tell at the beginning of your book, by the way, had my heart racing. I would love you to tell a little bit about this story, but I think this is the thing that maybe pushed you over the edge. You decided you were going to swap rooms with your kids and like rearrange all the furniture and somehow you were going to achieve this while your wife was out of the house for like an hour or two or something with the kids. So tell, tell this story. Cause this is incredible. And I was like, I was like shaking reading this. 

[00:06:16] Tyler:Yeah, because that’s sory of the classic like, let me take, you know, this was when I was two days off of leave. I was like, what should I do with my time? I've just had this huge mental health crisis at work. So I was like, I think that we should switch bedrooms with our daughters. And my wife was like, that might be a great idea, but I don't think that we do that today.

And so I was like. And then I waited for her a couple hours later to leave and I thought, I'm just going to do it while she's gone. This is classic, like, I'm just going to move everything and it's going to be so great when she walks back in. She's going to think that, like, I am the superhero. This was before I had the moniker Tidy Dad, but as most listeners will know, like, it's really difficult to move huge pieces of furniture by yourself. So, in order to move heavy furniture, you have to unload that furniture. But then when you unload the furniture and shimmy it with beach towels underneath, I was so worried about the floors in our apartment that I was like, oh my gosh, my landlord's gonna be so mad if he sees, like, that I've scratched stuff.

So I tried to, like, lift the door, you know, lift the stuff up. Basically, I imploded the whole space, and then I heard the click of the door, my wife walked in, the blood drained from her face, it drained from my face, and then my sister in law, who was our downstairs neighbor, was there, like, giggling to herself of like, what has just transpired?

So, I don't recommend that you just implode your space by trying to move all the stuff on your own. But, in hindsight, we were forced to go through all of our stuff, and to bring order to things, and we did end up switching bedrooms with our daughters, which helped. And we decided to add one more to the mix, so we now have three girls instead of two.

So, it sort of worked out, and it made for a great intro story to a book. I wouldn't have, that's the, that's the like silver lining of all this. Like , it's funny, it's like comical to think back all those years ago of like, the detail, I mean, and that's the thing, like trauma. I'm not saying that that was fully trauma, but you know, when all the details are just seared in your brain, like I can, anytime someone says like, oh, you swapped bedrooms with your girls.

I immediately feel everything that I felt in that moment. And I'm just back there.

[00:08:38] Adam: Yeah, it's I mean. I can't even imagine. but you're right. It did create a wonderful intro for your book. My heart was racing. It was gripping. so great job there. If only you knew back then. So you mentioned you've, you've three daughters now and a partner, a wife. So tell me a little bit more about your family.

[00:08:56] Tyler: Yeah, so my, my daughters are 9, 7, and 4. My wife, we've been married for, this is when you get, I think 16 years. We got married, we got married very young. Plus I have a wonderful skin care routine. So anytime anyone's like, how have you been married that long? How do you have all those children? I'm like, It's a good skincare routine.

You gotta have all those steps. But she now, interestingly, she was a pediatric occupational therapist, but now she helps me with Tidy Dad, which is interesting because there's so much work that goes into really everything. But it's fascinating for her to sit on the business side of Tidy Dad while I'm the like creative, like I'm going to figure out this new way to clean our toilet.

Or I really think that we can figure out these like new drawers for underneath our kitchen sink. And she's like, that sounds great. You do that, but we have had to work through this like balance of how do we share work? How do we manage all three girls? How are you know, the goal isn't always equal because that's not, that idea of balance people throw out all the time and it's really tricky because we're both navigating so many things, but it's the female audience that they always ask questions about what my wife is doing or they say, it seems like you do everything. What does your wife do? And I'm like, I'm filming myself. I'm writing about myself. I'm not filming my wife. Like, not the story that I'm telling. I'm telling my story. She's obviously a character and an important part of the story, as are my children, but like, I'm telling it from my perspective, which I think is important.

Adam: Yeah, I wanted to ask too. So we're going to spend a lot of time on The tidy dad persona and tidy tidying up your life because there's so many lessons in this book that I feel so compelled to share with this audience. That's why I invited you on. But the first thing I wanted to ask you before we get into that is you talk about this very publicly that you live in a fairly tiny New York City apartment.

[00:11:03] Tyler: hmm. Mm

[00:11:04] Adam: I don't think you would describe it as massive. Most people in your situation would be terrified to raise three tiny humans in that environment. in a small space with that number of people. So what was the decision like for you and your wife to start a family living in a, such a small place?

And then. Not only one kid, but two and then three

[00:11:27] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:11:28] Adam: What was that conversation like?

[00:11:31] Tyler: It's a great question. You know, when we moved to New York City, we moved here 15 years ago because I was going to get my master's at Columbia, which I did. But everybody kept putting these time sort of stamps on us and this like, okay, so you're going to move back because I was born in Kentucky.

So you're going to move back after you graduate from your master's program. And then it was like, okay, so now you're going to move back like before you have kids. And then it was, you're going to move back after the first, after the second. And I don't know, there was something about the simplicity of life in New York city.

And I know that that is so hard to describe to people, mainly because people go to Times Square and they walk around and they're like, oh, I could never live here. And I'm like. I say the same thing when I walk through Times Square, and like, people don't live in Times Square, like, those are tourists, no, no New Yorker

wants to go to Times Square unless you're like going to a show or you're like transferring to a different train. Like we don't go there. So there was a simplicity that as we were thinking about our family, we were like, you know, I walk to and from school every day. Our grocery store is literally right around the block.

The laundromat is across the street. We have friends and neighbors and community that many of our friends in the suburbs, I mean, it's not to say that there's not community in the suburbs because there is, but there was something about the simplicity of life here that just made us want to stay. And so as we increased in numbers.

You know, life in New York City is really all that our daughters know. So, it's funny because whenever we leave, the girls are like, why do kids have separate bedrooms? Like, that's really strange. They walk into people's houses and they're like, Why do people have so many doors? They went to my dad because he has a basement.

And they were like, Papa, who lives downstairs? And he was like, that's our, and they were like, what do you, you don't have downstairs neighbors? We would drive past like people's yards and there would be the play sets. And they're like, can we please go to that playground? And I'm like, no, like that's the, so it's funny because.

We get so many questions of like, how do you have kids in New York city? But then like my children are sort of like, but how do you have kids in the suburbs? Like, it's just funny. What becomes normal?

[00:13:56] Adam: Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that, that, that's amazing. That sounds like you just went for it and you know, you're, you're making it all work. And so I wanted to get into the book a little bit. So one of the things I found particularly interesting about the book is this isn't like, It doesn't start with like a Marie Kondo exercise, right?

There's actually two parts to being tidy in your book. The first that you start with is tidying up your mind. And it sounds like that, you know, that's part of the journey that you went on. And then you get into tidying up your space. Tell me about why this order of operations is so important.

[00:14:31] Tyler: Yeah, I think that, you know, mental clutter and physical clutter often go hand in hand, but if you don't have an acute sense of why the mess is triggering you in the first place, you are just going to throw strategies against the wall to see what sticks and like, we do this all the time with like our professional lives that it's like we don't understand why work is triggering us or why we're so overwhelmed.

So what do we oftentimes do? We just try to like work more hours and work harder or like, you know, try to see if we can just throw time at that problem in our homes. You know, if we start to feel like the walls are closing in, what so many people do is they're like. Okay, I'm just gonna find another house like let's sell, let's buy a new place without because I've had so many friends that they're then like, but what does this mean to my commute?

What does this mean to the amount of hours that I actually have to spend at home? What does this do to our finances? Now I'm like completely house poor, and I'm not able to actually do anything that I want to do, and it stems from the mess that they may have felt in their space. So I feel like you've got to tidy up your mind first to then begin to develop strategies for how you can tackle the other messes that you may experience, but you know, when people see a huge mess in their house, the first thing they do is they go to Walmart or Target or the container store and they're like, I'm going to buy all those bins and I'm going to come home and I'm going to completely organize that garage.

But then they get overwhelmed and they're like, are you kidding me? Like none of these things fit inside this bin. So what in the world am I supposed to do? But it's because they didn't like sit with the mess. First, before making the plan.

[00:16:19] Adam: Yeah. And we have a lot of bins in our house, so I, I can feel that pain. I feel that pain. Can you take me through, so there's some specific topics I want to cover from the book, but you, can you take me through generally what some of the advice is in, in tidy up your life and what some of the kind of frameworks and approaches you have?

[00:16:37] Tyler: Yeah, so one really defining sort of principle is this idea of being able to define what is “just enough”. So “just enough” is this idea of being able really to establish boundaries around certain categories of your life in order to make space for the things that really matter to you. You know, there's a lot of talk about minimalism and this idea of if you can just reduce, reduce, reduce down to the lowest sort of number of things, then inherently there will be like joy

and happiness, or you might feel like life is simpler or better. I think for many of us, that isn't realistic. Like, you have kids, I have kids. Kids grow, and they develop interests, and they change, and they come with a lot of, like, stuff. And so we've had to think about, how do we establish this “just enough” philosophy in certain areas of life to then make space for the things that are important and underlying that “just enough” idea is if you can be acutely aware of the values that you have, like what's important to you and name those values to the people that you live with are the people that are in your life that can then help you make some of these larger decisions.

I feel like so many people feel like life is happening to them as opposed to them sort of being in the driver's seat. And no, we can't control everything. Sometimes it feels like we can't control anything. But like, if you can name those values of what's important to you, that can help you make decisions that do have big consequences, you know, both good and bad on your life.

[00:18:14] Adam: Yeah. So starting with this philosophy of just enough when it comes to it sounds like possessions, commitments, all of those things.

[00:18:23] Tyler: hmm. Professional life. Huh.

[00:18:24] Adam: How have you, what's an example of, of sort of you working through that decision on whether something is “just enough” or what kind of you need in, in your life?

What's an example of that? 

[00:18:35] Tyler: So it's interesting because there's always the podcast that happens before we record and then we hit record. But one of the questions that you asked me first was like, if I'm still teaching and why haven't I, you know, not ride off into the sun, but like the book is exciting, you know, there are other opportunities.

And so it's sort of that question of like, why am I not sort of expanding myself in that avenue and becoming full blown Tidy Dad. And I think that it does come back to this idea of what is “just enough” right now, and I have some hustle in me. Like, in order to write a book, get a book deal, you gotta have a certain amount of hustle.

But what I've learned about myself is that I don't have, you know, an extended amount of hustle energy. And like, right now, there is something that feels really nice about having my predictable rhythm of going to school every day with my three children. They all attend the school where I go. So I get to see them during the school day.

I do pick up, I do drop off. I know who all their teachers are. It's an amazing opportunity right now. There's something to be said for like health insurance and benefits and a pension that like right now, what is “just enough” is teaching and also experiencing the joys of like being able to share as Tidy Dad, because I don't. want to hustle my children's entire childhood. I don't want to hustle 12 months out of the year. I love that at the end of the school year, I'm able to step away for those two months and be full time dad during the summertime before I then start fresh and new the school year again.

And so I'm always asked these questions of like, what's next? What are you going to do? And when I say, I'm going to keep teaching, people are always like, but why? But then when I explain the, how that job is “just enough” right now, there's more so of that recognition of like, oh, okay. Like I I see that and it helps other people sort of reflect on their own lives,

[00:20:45] Adam: yeah,

[00:20:47] Tyler: I’m sure that you can identify with that.

Like the hustle, like the hustle is fun, but then there's a point where the hustle is not fun and you're just tired.

[00:20:56] Adam: Yeah. And it sounds like too the, remaining a teacher gives you a grounding and a predictability. I mean, as predictable as a, you know, fifth grade classroom can be, I think. But it gives you something that balances out what can be the chaos of like a creator, kind of online, permanently online lifestyle. And so you…

[00:21:19] Tyler: Yes. And I have, I've also wondered. About the pressure that I would feel because right now, Tidy Dad really feels like this passion project. Like I'm in the thick of it. I love sharing tips and ideas and things that I've discovered and how I'm navigating work and family and trying to feel like I'm a good husband while also having some semblance of self.

And I'm worried of, like, what would happen if I'm now full time Tidy Dad, what is the pressure then become vocationally in order to perform and achieve when, I don't know, there is so much joy that still comes from me, from teaching. And being there with my children that like I love that I am in the same building with my kids all day and I know that time goes by so quickly that this is not going to be a forever sort of thing unless I go with them to middle school and then to high school.

And then, and I have told them, I'm like, someday, you know, if you girls decide to live in three different places, I'm like, I'm going to be able to retire kind of young with my pension. So I was like, I'll spend four months of the year in each of those places. I was like, I'll watch your kids. I'll clean your toilets.

I'll like, I'll cook dinner for you. And like one of my daughters is like, that sounds great. And the other two are like. No, dad, you're not doing that.

[00:22:42] Adam: Sounds like my daughter.

[00:22:46] Tyler: Yes. I'm like, come on, come on. But

[00:22:49] Adam: So after this philosophy of just enough, let's say you kind of get into the right head space. Like what's something that comes after that in the, in the tidy dad world.

[00:22:58] Tyler: So to me, it really is this idea of identifying your rhythms and then establishing routine that there are seasons of life where you are confronted with a whole host of problems. And I do feel like routines work best when they help to solve a problem. And so like some problems can be like. Getting your kids to just lay down and go to sleep, you know, like that bedtime shuffle is huge getting out the door on time to work is huge, being able to actually fit in time to go to the gym or to go for that run so that you can maintain your mental health and also physical health like those are problems that you know people confront and face and so I think when you're able to establish the rhythms of your life and then be able to think about what routines might be able to compliment that that's where there's real power, but it relates back to “just enough” because you can't do it all like I cannot be this blazing success at work, this wonderful devoted husband, this fully present father to my children, plus this like, gym, I don't even know what you call them, like the muscle guy at the gym spending like three hours a day pumping iron.

Like, I cannot do it all. So I have to figure out where can I cut, you know, where can I establish boundaries in certain areas of life in order to make space for what actually matters.

[00:24:32] Adam: One of the, so you talk, you just mentioned routine and rhythm. One of the routines that you talk about from is a cleaning routine called the one area, a weekday cleaning routine. So I'm curious about what that is and then how does that benefit a busy parent?

[00:24:51] Tyler: So I feel like this is what years ago went viral on Instagram. I have like this book to thank for this weekday cleaning routine, which was literally me realizing that like that marathon cleaning on a Saturday with young children is just not possible. Like if you can do anything for a sustained period of time.

You are not cleaning your house. So get like, I feel like that is a lie that everybody tells themselves that they're like, I'm going to clean on Saturday for two hours and it's going to be great. That doesn't happen. So I thought, can I take all those cleaning tasks and divide them across days of the week?

I'm in a really small apartment. We have five rooms. That is five days of the week. You know, so I have my bathroom cleaning day, kitchen, then living area, bedrooms, and then the playroom. And so what I do is, is every morning, and we are like, years into this, I set my 15 minute timer and I clean one area of the house each weekday I wake up before my children, I brew my coffee, I drink it as I clean, I race against the clock, but I feel like that I'm not saying that it's inconsequential because I do think that having a clean home is important. Like we're in germ season, you've got to have a clean kitchen or else you can get sick.

You've got to have a clean bathroom, but like no one is really coming over. There's not the like sanitation workers who are coming over to like give me the letter grade on my bathroom, but yet taking an overwhelming routine like cleaning and dividing it across the week taught me how to take other larger, you know, more consequential sort of like issues that I may face and figure out how can I make this more manageable.

And it's even like this summer, I wanted to train for a triathlon. I had never done a triathlon before in my life, but what did I do? I decided, when am I going to set the actual date for the triathlon? I had like six weeks to train. And then it's like, okay, now let me backwards map. What are the like line in the sands, the points of training that I want to get to?

How am I dividing workouts across the week? What am I going to do each day? How is that going to impact other routines that we have at home? And so I trained for a triathlon because my children, they get up early, but I could beat them. So even in this summer, I was up at like 5:30, running around the neighborhood, riding my bike, going to my swim team.

But I did it early in the morning because that's when I could fit it in. So I do feel like there's power in can you identify something that feels overwhelming and then figure out how to make it more manageable. And then transfer that learning to other things.

[00:27:38] Adam: Yeah, I think that's really interesting with the once area a weekday cleaning routine, because yeah, if you add up all those rooms, let's say 15 minutes times five, you've got 75 minutes, let's say maybe an hour and a half. If you think about like, oh, I got to spend an hour and a half cleaning my whole house now and it's Saturday and I really want to be outside or doing whatever, but if you chunk that into.

15 minutes, but you can do anything for 15 minutes. Right. And so, it sounds like that's a, a great way of taking something that is a cumbersome chore that feels like, oh, this is never going to end, so much work and making it a really quite a bit more manageable. So I love that.

[00:28:22] Tyler: I think so. And it's funny because I asked my sister and brother in law, they have like a seven acre farm and I was like, what do you guys do to mow the yard? And she was, my sister was like, yeah, my husband, you know, he mows for like five hours every Saturday. And I was like, are you kidding me? She was like, but he loves it.

Like he just listens to podcasts and he like listens to audio books. And I was like, and then you're stuck inside with your children. Like, like, I, that is like unfathomable to me, but. If you enjoy the chore, if you enjoy the routine, make it like work for you. But all of our spaces are different. Our yards are different.

Our lives are different. But I feel like if it's deeply rooted in what actually matters to you, that's really important and like, if you don't want to spend five hours mowing the yard, then don't have a yard that spends five hours, that takes you five hours to mow, like eliminate that work.

[00:29:24] Adam: Right. Yeah. One of the things I wanted to ask you about, so a lot of parents, including this podcast host, tend to feel overwhelmed when it comes to clutter. You did at some point,

[00:29:35] Tyler: Yeah, yeah,

[00:29:36] Adam: Everything you felt, there's a chaos of it all. When you want to talk to somebody about taking the very first step.

What, is it that, is it figuring out what's just enough? Is it something else that you recommend to people as the very first step to kind of decluttering their lives?

[00:29:55] Tyler: Yeah. So I do think that. Knowing the four decluttering steps is helpful, that it's that idea of, if you see a mess, be it physical, emotional, but even taking your like, I don't know, that like random junk drawer that everyone has in their kitchen, that the steps are, first you've got to clear it, completely take everything out, then you need to sort it, because if you don't sort it, you have no idea of what categories of things are actually in there, then, you can begin to assess what to keep versus what to move out before you actually make the plan.

And we talked about this earlier. Most people, when they see a mess, they immediately want to go into making the plan. They're like, let me go buy all the stuff. It's going to make things so much better. But if you don't actually hone those skills around sorting stuff and then deciding what to keep or what to move out, like, it's going to feel very defeating and you're just going to continue to have that mess.

The other thing is that people always start with really tricky categories first. Like, especially with kids. Immediately, they're like, okay kids, like, you have way too many toys. Nobody's going to get anything for their birthday unless you decide what you're going to send to all the needy kids who need toys.

Like that's how, that's the script. That's how it always goes. That's the punishment. But it's like to kids, their toys, there is literally nothing more sentimental to them than toys. So why in the world would you start with toys when you're trying to teach skills around decluttering? You got to start with things that are much lower stakes and adults do this to adults to all the time that they like the spouse walks into the other spouses or partner's office.

And they're like, you have way too many work papers. You got to get rid of all these. Like we shouldn't have any paper in the house. Or they're like, why do you have all that stuff from your mother? Your mother's always given us something. Get rid of it. It's like. No, there's nothing more, like, unmotivating than someone else yelling at you about a category of stuff that they think you need to get rid of.

So, deal with your stuff first, hone the decision making skills, and then think about how you can transfer those skills to other, more complex areas of your life.

[00:32:09] Adam: Yeah. So you mentioned, you know, the wrong thing to do with kids, which is come in and be like all those things that you have a sentimental attachment to 50 percent of them got to go, figure it out, kids or else nothing else, you know? So that's the wrong way to involve your kids in the tidying process.

What's the right way? I imagine you're right. Kids are all at an age, even your youngest at an age where she can help. So how do you involve your kids in the tidying process?

[00:32:37] Tyler: So, you know, one thing that's helped is we have this decluttering calendar where we've sort of made this like yearly sort of outline of what months are certain things decluttered because the classic example is like. In October, everybody's thinking about Halloween. Everybody and their mother is trying to give away Halloween costumes in October.

So you should be giving away your Halloween costumes then too. The stuff that's outgrown. Because in November, nobody wants your stuff. Nobody wants the Halloween costumes. The same is like toys, everybody waits until January to like get rid of all the kids' stuff. And it's like, nobody wants it then. So when you start to align sort of your decluttering with the consumerist sort of like flow of the year, when people are looking for things, there's power in that.

And kids can begin to recognize like, oh, in the springtime, that's when we always go through things like old swimsuits, because I can't wear a swimsuit that doesn't fit. That is a tangible decluttering thing that makes sense to kids. The swimsuit doesn't fit. I need a new one. I'm not going to hold on to the old swimsuit.

I need to make space for new things to come in. Just like the start of school. That it's like you have outgrown probably those like school clothes, like no kid is going to want to wear the jeans that are like way too short. That is a decluttering skill that makes sense for kids and so that's a natural sort of entry point.

It's like have the calendar, don't do it all at one time, but then involve them in some of the decisions where it's really easy for them to identify what they want to keep versus what they want to move out.

[00:34:25] Adam: Yeah. I also like this kind of gets back to what you described in some ways with the one area a weekday chunking things into manageable tasks and sort of seasons of decluttering, as opposed to what a lot of people do, which is, well, it's spring cleaning time and I got to do everything.

Everything that I've been putting off for the year, it's time to do it now.

[00:34:50] Tyler: Because even like home maintenance, like it's really important for you to know how to care for your home, knowing where the water valves are, where your breaker boxes, where all your filters are, how your washing machine works. Those are things that need to be maintained all throughout the year.

And so I have this like quarterly sort of like list of tasks. I have a three month, you know, stretch of time, but I know every spring, these are the things that need to happen. Every winter, these are the things that I need to check because so often what causes the mental stress is just not having a clear plan for like what to do.

You know, that it's like, we have a cottage also in Pennsylvania, and so I learned about how to care for the house because a friend was like, you need to find a home inspector that will literally let you follow them around. So we found one, and I followed that man from room to room to room, and in two hours, he taught me, you know, I, I, I listened to what the questions he was asking what he was looking for, but then he taught me all of the things to do in that house and I took notes and that's how I learned.

So, you know, anymore, like not knowing how to do something isn't really an excuse. Like you've got to figure out. How do things work and then make a schedule that's manageable or else you can find yourself in lots of different predicaments or you're throwing money at problems that you may have been able to prevent in the first place.

[00:36:19] Adam: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that advice. And I mean, especially with the seasonal decluttering too, I like this idea of thinking about the decluttering when you're about to take in new stuff. So like, If you're getting, going to get new toys in the next two to four weeks, cause it's Christmas time or holiday time.

Like that's the time to think about getting rid of the existing stuff. January when no one else wants the stuff, right. Cause they just got their own influx and they're dealing with the same problem. So, oh, I love that.

[00:36:53] Tyler: Yeah, and I get that. I get the question. Sometimes it's with the cleaning routine to that people are like, but does that mean that your house is like never clean all at the same time. Or like even with the decluttering calendar, people are like, so does that mean that I'm like always going through stuff?

And it's like, I don't think that it's that the house is never clean or that you're always going through stuff. But to me, it's just not realistic to think that I'm going to be able to clean for two hours solid. Just like it's not realistic to think that like on a Saturday, I'm going to be able to go through everything in the house and completely reset it.

Like, I feel like sometimes we have these expectations and our expectations let us down. And so I have found that dividing tasks across the days, across the weeks, making it manageable. I feel like there's a lot more success there than trying to just throw myself gung ho into it's like if you're training for a marathon and decide that like you're just going to start running like the day before, like you're going to injure yourself.

You're going to get hurt. You've got to establish that routine and then begin to taper, you know, in order to be able to, like, stay strong.

[00:38:08] Adam: Yeah. As a parent of three kids, what is the most challenging aspect of maintaining a tidy lifestyle? Besides everything.

[00:38:25] Tyler: The third kid. I'm just kidding. It's not her fault. You know, As you know, with your two kids and my three, every kid is so different. And so they each have different sort of intuitive, like my oldest daughter is intuitively very organized. My middle daughter is not at all. My third daughter just wants what she wants when she wants it and does not care about anything else.

And so, you know, we've really had to think about the approaches with the three of them. They do share their bedroom. We have one tiny bathroom. So we've had to navigate like, how do we share spaces with one another? What is like your personal real estate that you're in control of versus what do you have to tidy?

Because all of us are in this space together. And so, you know, growing up, I was. I have two sisters. I'm the middle child, which inherently makes me the favorite because I'm the only boy and and even to this day, like I'm the only one that takes my mother on vacation with us. My sisters do not. They only ask her to watch their children or their cats.

So, you know, it is interesting just to think about the different perspectives, the different ways in which we have to navigate sort of our space. And I don't think that things would be necessarily easier if we lived in a really large space. Like I've heard from people that in some ways it's like the problems just get bigger.

Like literally because there's more square footage and people do grow to fit their space. It's not like people buy a house and they're like, oh, yes, there's that empty room that's always gonna stay empty or look at that extra closet. Let's put nothing in there. Like, no, you literally fill every square inch.

So I've had to remind myself of that when I'm like, would it be easier if we just lived in a bigger place? But I recognize that like the trade offs wouldn't really be worth it. So right now we just are committed to our decluttering calendar. My little weekday cleaning routine works. I try to put my children to bed early.

We go on adventures on the weekend in New York city and we're just trying to embrace this like season of life.

[00:40:46] Adam: That's so awesome. I love asking this question to folks. If you had a time machine and you could go back in time 10 years, let's say before your oldest daughter was born and you bumped into 10 years younger Tyler what advice would you give younger Tyler about parenting,life, like what, what would you tell him?

[00:41:10] Tyler: Oh, it's a great question. I think there are two things. So I would say you're not in control. And I think the other thing is the, like, you are enough, like you as a person, are enough. You don't have to try to get on this rat race. You don't have to try to prove yourself to other people.

You don't have to put your worth in what other people believe, what they believe to be true about you. Like, you really are enough, which I feel like compliments the you're not in control because I tried for a lot of years to control everything around me. I had to have this perfectly put together facade.

I wanted people to think that I was funny and bright and successful, that I had like made it in the world. And where did that lead me crying on the sidewalk outside of CVS across from a nail salon as I was going to work and then the funny thing is like now I then wrote a book about that huge mess so I've literally aired any sort of precepts that I had about myself I've sort of blown those out of the water now which is comical because you know 10 years ago I was not on Instagram.

I still knew how to post on Facebook. But ten years later, I don't even know how Facebook works anymore. But I do know how to post on Instagram. So it's a, it's a really funny

[00:42:43] Adam: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:44] Tyler: Pendulum swing. But like, I'm not in control and I am enough. Like, I still have to remind myself of

[00:42:49] Adam: yeah.

[00:42:49] Tyler: That now,

[00:42:50] Adam: Do you ever, you know, again, you have two sisters, mom, a lot of friends. When you were about to have your first or second or third kid, I'm sure people were dispensing tons of advice to you about how you should live your life. What advice would you go back and tell younger Tyler, let that go. Don't even internalize that.

Ignore it.

[00:43:18] Tyler: You know, I think one is you're going to be fine living in New York City. People think my family, I still get calls from my grandma. When anything happens on the news, they call when my sister in law, my sister in law used to live in our downstairs apartment. She about a year ago moved to Indianapolis and she called her grandma, which is my wife's grandma, as well, and was like, Grandma, we're moving from New York City to Indianapolis. And her grandma was like, thank God. Thank God, Audrey. Thank God. And my wife was like, I, like, what, what, why? Like, I don't know. I think that, you know the location where we've chosen to live is like a character in my story, but people are constantly asking us, when are we going to move?

Where are we going to go? What are we going to do? And like, New York city is going to be okay for us right now in this season of life, it's like great, but if we decide to not live in New York city, okay. Like lots of people, you know, like we're not here for the rest of our lives, unless we want to be, but

I don't know. I just feel like so many people offer all these should haves with parenting advice or you need to do this. You need to do that. Oh, if you don't do this, then you're going to have all these problems and like nobody is perfect. Everybody is a first time parent the first time they have that child and everybody gets to make their own mistakes and learn from them.

But even as my therapist said because I remember when I was in therapy, I was like. What if my children come to therapy someday? Like, what, how should I feel? And my therapist was like, well, you're in therapy right now, and do you think that there's something wrong with going to therapy? And I was like, well, no, I really like coming, and it's really helpful.

She was like, okay, that's one. But then two, she was like, but I find that like, when you own your own stuff, Then your kids can go to a therapist and they can own their own, their own stuff. Like, the goal is not to put your own generational trauma or issues that you've had on your children. Your children are going to have their own issues to deal with.

But like, they don't need to deal with your stuff. So I was like, okay, Suzanne. And so I kept going for three years. And now, you know, I'm Tidy Dad on Instagram. What my children will say someday, I don't know. They think, who knows? Who knows? But.

Adam: That raises a really interesting question, which is you are living a lot of your life now online. Like that's the role of a creator or an influencer or somebody who is a public persona, and you've, you're building this public persona while, you know, still being a teacher and everything else, but you're living a chunk of your life online. How do you think about the relationship that you want your kids to have with technology and social media and things like that as they get older?

[00:46:27] Tyler: So I think that you have to be okay in your own life before you start putting yourself personally online. Like, you've got to have a solid sense of your core values, what's important to you, relationships with real people that are in your life. Even like my job as a teacher, like that very much grounds me in reality every single day, because the online world, you know, you're only presented with a certain snapshot of a person's life and whether you are posting publicly.

Or you just have that sort of like private Facebook page where you're still following all of your friends. There is this inherent sort of feeling that you have when you see other people's posts, or things that they have, or things that you then get slightly sort of like jealous of, or they're like, oh, that must be nice.

So I have had to learn how do I maintain that semblance of like who I am at my core as a person and recognize sort of what causes stress and doesn't? Like even for you, I would love to know, like do you read your podcast reviews?

[00:47:46] Adam: I do, I do. I probably, well, they've all been pretty good, so, but you know. The day I get a bad one, it probably will weigh on me a little bit.

[00:47:58] Tyler: Yeah. And that's what, that's what I've had to learn because even with the book coming out, I had to develop this like safety sort of plan for myself that I was like, okay, I'm not like, I'm not looking at book sales because numbers for me always disappoint. And that's just something instinctively to me.

Other people are super motivated by numbers. I have never been motivated by numbers a day in my life. Even, maybe that's why I'm a teacher, you know, I've never even professionally, I've never pursued all of those dollar signs like I just wanted to like be with kids and be helpful and but I, I, I haven't looked at reviews because I know that they're going to be people who really love it and they're going to be people for whom this book is not for them, which happens.

I have read books that are for me and others that aren't, but I found Reddit hate pages dedicated to me a couple years ago that was just brutally sort of unpacking Tidy Dad, things that I'd posted things that I've stood for and it's really hard to bounce back from that and I, I grieved for days because I was like, oh my gosh there's this like line in the sand that's been drawn that I can never go back from but then I had to realize that I'm like do I have time to post on hate forums?

No, do my friends have time to post on hate forums? No, just anyone that I know I mean, I hope not, like spend time doing this and probably not. And if you do, that actually says more about you than it does as me, this dad who is cleaning my toilet on Instagram. So like. You know, I just have to keep doing my thing, but I will say that I've always shared my personal stories, but I don't share the personal stories of my children or of my wife.

Like, this is my platform. I speak vulnerably about things that I go through. I don't do that of my wife and children. And when people ask me questions, I just say, I don't talk about that, but I'll tell you about the messes that I'm having in other areas of my life. So.

[00:50:15] Adam: Speaking of which, one of the topics you cover in your book is this idea of Sirri , which I thought was a really funny merger of, two words. Tell me about the concept of surthrival.

[00:50:28] Tyler: Yeah. So it's this idea that at any given point in time, there may be these seasons where you are consciously just trying to survive while also sort of tangibly knowing that there are opportunities for growth, which is like thriving. A tangible example is like being a parent to a newborn baby, everyone tells you, aren't you just so happy you are so blessed you are look at that little beautiful baby of like, aren't you just aren't you just in love like didn't you fall in love from the moment you held that baby and it's like, yes, but also when you're a new parent.

You've never felt exhaustion like that. And that exhaustion doesn't hit the first night. It hits like the fourth week, the sixth week, or like nine months in when you're like, oh my gosh, I'm never going to sleep again. Like that is, you know, that is a surthrival season and you have to figure out what are you going to do in order to sort of make way through that?

So it's like, you know, joy plotting is one thing I talk about of like just being able to name what are the little things that are bringing joy as you go throughout your week. And sometimes it's like, it's going to be a really warm afternoon and I'm going to be able to go for a run or like, I'm able to get off early on Friday afternoon.

We don't have any plans on Saturday. Like those are things that you can sort of start to hold on to. And it's recognizing that like surthrival seasons do come and go, but we have those moments where we feel like our emotional, mental, physical capacity is completely outstretched and we have to find those like anchors that bring us back to reality and also to a little bit of joy.

[00:52:18] Adam: Yeah. Tidy Dad, the persona has been around for a bit and the book just came out. Right. Early January. And we will link to it in the show notes so people can can buy it. What is the most rewarding feedback that you've received from parents who have implemented some of your strategies or followed some of your advice?

[00:52:40] Tyler: I feel like the most rewarding is where people feel like they actually have choice that their hand isn't forced. And I get it from a lot of people who live in New York City and they're like, you know what? You have three kids in New York City. We just had our second baby and I think we're going to like give it a go.

I've had so many people professionally that they're like, you know what? I was offered that promotion and I looked at the job responsibilities. I thought about the additional time that I was going to have to put in. They're like, I calculated out the salary and I realized that like, we're talking about like 50 bucks a paycheck.

And they were like, you know what? For this season of life, I actually said, I don't think that that's the right move for me. I just feel like, you know, choice is something that's always been so important to me. I've never wanted to feel like my hand is forced or that I can't do something when I want to do it.

I'm not the let's sell everything and move to Europe kind of person. Like I actually am very conservative with choices, but I do like to know that if I want to make a change. I can. And like when I found that like stepping back into teaching, it opened up a world of possibilities for me. I threw a wrench into this very straight lined career trajectory.

But you know what? I've learned it's okay to do that sometimes. And that often times, stepping back can mean that you're making space for something else. You just have to allow yourself to not be bound by a timeline. Like again, if you had said, just wait seven years after that mental health breakdown and you're going to have a best selling book and people are going to want to talk to you and you're going to go on the Today Show and talk about I would have laughed in someone's face.

[00:54:32] Adam: Yeah.

[00:54:33] Tyler: But, you just have to sort of enjoy the ride sometimes.

[00:54:36] Adam: Yeah. Speaking of the future, I know we're not in the prediction business, but what does the future hold for you and Tidy Dad? Do you have any new projects or initiatives you're working on, on the horizon? 

[00:54:51] Tyler: It’s funny because someone just finished the book and they were like, can't wait for the sequel. And literally I read the DM and I got a double eye twitch because that's where I feel the stress. And I was like, okay, I don't think that it's going to be a book yet, but you know, I'm interested in discovering writing again, like I have this weekly email series. It's like these essays that I send out that it's called behind the stories, which is sort of unpacking, like, what are some of the things that have happened in my life that it's not really present day. It's not in the moment, but it's like what happened behind the story.

So it's the play on Instagram stories, but also the stories that are in the book. So that I'm excited about. I'm signing up for a triathlon in June where it's in Cape May, New Jersey, and you get to jump off an 18 foot boat and you swim ashore and then you bike and then you run and I know that that sounds horrible for some people and everyone keeps telling me that Cape May New Jersey has lots of they're like don't you know that that's famous for sharks and I'm like no I didn't know that. But there's also you know I am I don't know I'm a dreamer and I love sort of being creative and thinking about what's next but also I'm like tangibly trying to enjoy the present day and just you know, finishing out this school year strong, enjoying being around my children, you know, spending time with my wife, feeling like I have a little bit of margin to read and watch shows and spend time.

So, you know, what's next? I think that and then there'll be a blazing TV career, you know, like with a like with shows and a biopic, you know, like, like Tidy Up Your Life needs to be turned into a movie. A marvel series because I could like be the actual superhero, right? So, you know, That that can be, but I need a little bit of time to

[00:56:53] Adam: Yeah.

[00:56:54] Tyler: to get ready for that.

[00:56:55] Adam: It's, it sounds like now you're doing a good job of practicing that just enough, you know, like just living, living that.

[00:57:03] Tyler: Yeah, because we are so ingrained in our culture to always know what the next answer is, or what the next step in our career is, or like, what do you want to do with your family? What do you want to achieve in five years? And I think that it is okay to say, I don't know. Like, it doesn't mean that you're not doing anything, but just rest can actually be an okay sort of thing.

So that's what I'm trying to do while also thinking of like, should I be a podcast host? Who could I interview for this? When am I, when is the Today Show gonna want to get me back? Do I want to write another book? What if I launch a magazine like Martha Stewart living?

[00:57:46] Adam: Oh my. Oh my.

[00:57:48] Tyler: But then I'm like, but then you're like, but what would that actually mean for your life?

[00:57:52] Adam: Right.

[00:57:52] Tyler: And I watched the Martha documentary. She went to prison. I don't want, you know, I'm like,

[00:57:59] Adam: Right.

[00:57:59] Tyler: I’m like, I don't, but she became friends with Snoop Dogg and Snoop Dogg's actually pretty cool. So I'm like, I don't know, maybe it was worth it.

[00:58:08] Adam: You’re like, how can I do Martha Stewart without going to prison, but plus Snoop Dogg? How do I find, how do I find that balance? That's just enough. Tyler, how can people follow along or be helpful to you on your tidy dad journey?

[00:58:23] Tyler: So on Instagram, I'm @tidydad. I also have a website, the tidy dad.com. I have a TikTok that you never know. Is it going to be here? Is it going to be saved? Who even, who even knows about TikTok? But then the book, if you're interested, it's everywhere. Books are sold, which is a really exciting thing to share that like people are finding it, people are buying it, and it's cool to think about.

Where this little book will land that I hope it inspires and helps people who needs to read it, so

[00:58:54] Adam: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we will link to all of these places in the, in the show notes. So, I'm excited. Do you have a few moments for our lightning round?

[00:59:04] Tyler: Yes. Oh, I love lightning round.

[00:59:06] Adam: Oh yes, lightning round. There's one rule. And that rule is I ask you a question and you say the first thing that comes to mind, it's a judgment free zone here on Startup Dad.

Although I will laugh, you know, for funny things, but but no judgment, never any

judgment. Okay. Here we go. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you've ever purchased?

[00:59:28] Tyler: Oh my gosh. Folex cleaner that it's The stuff that will literally clean anything.

[00:59:34] Adam: Okay, what is the most useless parenting product you've ever purchased?

[00:59:39] Tyler: I don't even want to tell you the first thing that came to mind. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. At first I was like, oh my gosh, my mother in law coming in to ask to help. And I was like, no, even though, even though I just said it unsolicited advice, I'm just going to name unsolicited advice. It's not helpful.

[01:00:00] Adam: Okay, what is the weirdest thing you've ever found in your kids pockets or in the washing machine?

[01:00:07] Tyler: Oh my gosh. So slime, like, I, I hate slime. And why anyone would decide to put it in their pockets. I don't know. Like why would it have to get there? It ruins everything. I hate slime and glitter.

[01:00:23] Adam: Slime and glitter. Oh,

[01:00:24] Tyler: Oh, it's horrible.

[01:00:26] Adam: I feel ya. Okay, true or false. There's only one correct way to load the dishwasher. 

[01:00:35] Tyler: True. And the people who don't rinse dishes, I don't understand. Like, you are literally setting yourself up to have to scrape stuff afterwards.

[01:00:45] Adam: Yes. I think we kind of have established what the answer to this is, but what would you say your signature dad superpower is?

[01:00:54] Tyler: Hmm.

[01:00:55] Adam: Maybe beyond being tidy and organized.

[01:00:58] Tyler: Ugh. I think being able to inject humor into almost any situation.

[01:01:04] Adam: Love that.

[01:01:05] Tyler: Like, I, I have a joke. I can cut it. You know.

[01:01:09] Adam: What is the crazier block of time in your household, 6 a. m. to 8 a. m. or 6 p. m. to 8 p. m.?

[01:01:17] Tyler: Oh, 6pm to 8pm. My children turn into savages. Like, that have no, that have no care for anyone except for themselves and wanting snacks and water bottles. The water bottle stress, it drives me nuts.

[01:01:32] Adam: Yes. The ideal day with your kids involves which one activity?

[01:01:37] Tyler: I think water, anything water, whether we're swimming, paddle boarding, whatever, is just calming.

[01:01:44] Adam: If your kids had to describe you in one word, what would it be?

[01:01:49] Tyler: Oh, they love calling me Messy Dad. They love, they, they, they, they are my, they are my trolls.

[01:01:55] Adam: I was going to say, it sounds like they're trolling you. What is the most frustrating thing that has ever happened to you as a dad?

[01:02:01] Tyler: Not having changing tables in bathrooms.

[01:02:05] Adam: Oooo. Yes.

[01:02:06] Tyler: Why? In this modern day, does a dad not have a changing table in the public restroom? I don't understand.

[01:02:13] Adam: What is the funniest thing that one of your kids has ever said in public?

[01:02:18] Tyler: The poop talk is real. Like it's, it's, it's real. And I know that every parent goes through it. But why? Why does it have to come out? Especially in like church settings, you know,

[01:02:29] Adam: Because why not? What is your favorite kids movie?

[01:02:36] Tyler: I love the Despicable Me series. Those little minions. They're so troublesome, but I love Despicable Me.

[01:02:44] Adam: What is the fastest way to get your kids out of bed in the morning?

[01:02:47] Tyler: Oh, the smell of breakfast.

[01:02:50] Adam: Ah, yes. What is the worst experience that you've ever had assembling a kid's toy or a piece of furniture?

[01:02:57] Tyler: Oh, you know, I love Ikea, but I often like to do things by myself. The whole wardrobe systems, we have a triple wardrobes, all the pieces, all the parts, and the rooms are so small that I couldn't fit, I had to stack them on top of each other to assemble them, to then move them. So.

[01:03:15] Adam: That.

[01:03:17] Tyler: Yes, yes.

[01:03:18] Adam: Have you ever mixed up your daughter's names?

[01:03:21] Tyler: 100%. Every single day. And they don't understand why. Why did I give them all M names? I don't know. I don't know why we did that. We chose it!

[01:03:31] Adam: Yeah, yeah. How long can a piece of food sit on the floor and you will still eat it?

[01:03:37] Tyler: I think at least six hours.

[01:03:38] Adam: Okay. That's very specific.

[01:03:42] Tyler: Like, I'm thinking from lunch to dinner when I've seen, when I've seen stuff. And I'm like, oh, and anything sweet. Always.

[01:03:50] Adam: Always. Okay. Which nostalgic movie can you just not wait to force your kids to watch with you?

[01:03:59] Tyler: Oh, Sister Act.

[01:04:01] Adam: Oh,

[01:04:02] Tyler: I love Sister Act, but there's the whole scene at the beginning where she's like shot at, and you have to sort of explain, like, why are they trying to kill Sister Mary Clarence? But I love that movie.

[01:04:12] Adam: Yeah. That's a good one. I don't know that anyone's ever brought that one up on this, on this show. So, what is your favorite dad hack for road trips or flights?

[01:04:22] Tyler: Oh, road Trips or flights? So for flights, I always have the girls pack individually wrapped chocolate candies to give to people. So stewardesses, people that are sitting next to them. We've given it to the people at the gate because we have scored some really nice seats. So I feel like if you can bring something nice for the people around you, that that's just a little something.

And it's really easy. Like those little Lindt chocolates, like just take a bag of them, hand them out. And people think it's cute. And you might get better seats. That's what we've

[01:04:58] Adam: That is an incredible hack. I know I said judgment free zone, but I'm a big fan of that one. So, I may try that sometime soon. Okay, finally. You live in New York City, but you have three kids. What is your take on minivans?

[01:05:15] Tyler: They cannot be parallel parked. They cannot. They are huge storage units. And it breeds all of this entitlement to children. My children, they are stuffed three across in the back seat. And you know what? They're gonna work hard someday to have their own luxury car that then I can ride in. Right?

[01:05:38] Adam: Yes. I love that. It breeds entitlement and kids. Not every car comes with a TV in the back, you know? So.

[01:05:44] Tyler: No! No, you don't need your own seat, you don't need your own cup holder. No, just sit there. Sit there and look out the window.

[01:05:52] Adam: Oh, what a great, great sentiment to end on. I love that. Tyler. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. I learned a ton. I don't think I've ever laughed as much on a recording of this show. I really appreciate it. And the best of luck to you, your family and your book and your future as Tidy Dad.

[01:06:13] Tyler: Thanks, I really appreciate it.

[01:06:14] Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Tyler Moore, a.k. a. Tidy Dad. To support this show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify. It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Harron. If you're a startup founder, leader, or just want to get better at your job in tech as a growth practitioner, product manager, or executive, you can join a community of over 11,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth and product by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com. Thanks for listening, and see you next week.