Turning Divorce, Alcoholism And Violence Into Dadversity | Nathan Jefferson (Dad of 2, Founder of Dadversity)

[00:00:00] Nathan: I think there's an element of logic that needs to be applied to people's lives when they're giving advice generally, everyone's great at giving advice and I'm the same. I'm genuinely trying to stop myself from giving as much advice as possible and just kind of listening at key moments.

I think I'm less tolerant now to taking advice from people who have been on a very different track because that logic application just doesn't always come through. Because just people have their own experiences,

[00:00:28] Adam: Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where we dive deep into the lives of dads who are also leaders in the world of startups and business. I'm your host, Adam Fishman. In today's conversation, I sat down with Nathan Jefferson. Nathan is an entrepreneur turned tech recruiter turned entrepreneur again. His latest company is called Dadversity, and he's focused on helping dads improve their personal, professional and parenting skills.

Nathan is also a husband and the father of two kids. In our conversation today, we spoke about the origin story of Dadversity. Nathan was the product of a broken home filled with divorce, alcoholism, and violence. Because of that, he's on a mission to help dads do better so that they don't repeat the mistakes he experienced in childhood.

We talked about how to balance, or not, building a business with dad life, how to maintain strong relationships at home, and how he has learned despite having poor role models as a child. We also talked about some of the most impactful conversations he's had with Dadversity and the emotional toll building a community for dads can have on you.

I hope you enjoy today's conversation with Nathan Jefferson.

[00:01:45] Adam: I would like to welcome Nathan Jefferson to the Startup Dad podcast. Nathan, such a pleasure having you here today. I'm excited to chat.

[00:01:55] Nathan: Yeah, I'm excited too. Iwas delving into the old episodes last week. Really looking forward to getting stuck into it.

[00:02:01] Adam: Up until this year up until even a few weeks ago, you spent most of your life as a recruiter for companies, and I think most recently Oxford, the university.

[00:02:13] Nathan: Yeah.

[00:02:14] Adam: Tell me a little bit about that. What was life like as a recruiter?

[00:02:17] Nathan: It was interesting. You know, The irony of course, and I've never really thought of it like this until that question just landed. But the irony of course, is I never went to university and then we're suddenly at the latter end of my recruitment career, thrusted into probably one of the best academic institutions on the planet to try and fix their recruitment.

So yeah, academic kind of delinquent over here turned up at Oxford and thought, we need to try and fix this fairly quickly because there wasn't much structure or organization around how they were looking for certainly the back office kind of hiring. How I got into recruitment.

So my friend came running back from London one day, very excited about how he found his way into a recruiting agency over here. And he was like, hey, Nathan, look, you literally just place people in a job and get like 8 to 10,000 pounds or whatever that equates to in, dollars a little bit more, or maybe not now, I'm not sure.

And so we decided to launch an agency basically with one desk in my bedroom whilst I was still living at home as a 21 year old. And he had a desk in the hallway where we just launched an agency on kind of day one and just said let's get these things. we launched something called Purple Cloud Recruitment, which was ill thought out, terrible execution.

And we joined a horde of other agencies that really had no unique point of differentiation at all. It was just lots of cold calling and then spending time on job boards to try and fill vacancies. And it was hilarious, Adam you know, in the real kind of startup world we, I remember selling a car just so we could negotiate getting two really cheap cars, just so we could both get around to client meetings.

And it was really scrappy. You know, delivering take away every night just to keep some cash coming in whilst we started generating revenue. It was a real kind of scrappy starting in business, I guess. And we ran that for a few years. So we took a fairly big hit with one client who went into administration and that almost, well, essentially spelled the end of that business.

We carried on kind of trading for another 12 months, but it wasn't going to recover itself. And so I went into becoming a freelancer and helped companies to hire, which led to the Oxford experience essentially after kinda seven years of doing that. And then obviously last year we had a thought about kind of calling it a day and a couple of months ago decided to pull the plug on recruitment altogether.

[00:04:24] Adam: Wow. That's a pretty big jump. And you did that so that you could focus on Dadversity, which we're going to spend a lot of time on today. Normally, At this point, right after I ask people about their previous professional career, I would ask what life is like growing up and what you were like as a kid.

But instead, I'm gonna ask you to tell me about the origin story of Dadversity. Because I think it will take us into your childhood. And what life was like growing up. So can you tell me a little bit about the Dadversity origin story?

[00:05:05] Nathan: Yeah, so, going straight into the emotional one, huh?

[00:05:08] Adam: That's what the listeners are here for Nathan.

[00:05:10] Nathan: They’re here for the tears. That's good. So what, what happened? So I think it's important. I set some context around last year. So I was doing recruitment for Oxford. I don't necessarily think it was the Oxford experience that kind of got me out of recruitment. I think it was more kind of my passion for actually doing it. And so I took myself for a walk basically. And I was like, hey what would I have done? or what change would I have liked to see in the world? And so I was starting to think about all sorts of things.

I didn't, I was starting to think about, am I still too old to be a professional footballer? Clearly. Yes. And my ability with crap as well. And I went down the rabbit hole. I was like, what if I could build this? And what if I could build this? And in all honesty, I've tried so many little startup ideas over the years, you know, probably similar to a lot of kind of entrepreneurial people, I guess. I look at my kind of crazy domains account or hosting as it is now, and I see all these previous purchases for domain names and look back in horror at some of the ideas that I've tested. And in all honesty, every idea I've launched.

I've always given up when it got tough. And so when I took myself for a walk last year, I started trying to think about that. I was like, why is that the case? Why is it that when I encounter roadblocks with ideas or concepts, I really want to build a big business. So why can't I just stick it out when it gets tough?

And the answer I came to actually was because I just don't care about it. You know, I just didn't care about the ideas. I just didn't care about the origin behind them, the story. And so, I essentially thought what change do I want to see? What would I do if everything paid the same? I went back to that old question, you know, and started thinking about kind of childhood.

And, you know, we had a, I use the word scrappy quite a lot. I think life in general has been fairly scrappy. You know, it's nothing kind of super harsh about my upbringing. There's lots of people who've had it worse, but we had, you know, dad left home when I was kind of three, four years old, and we didn't really have a great relationship.

And we were kind of thrust into these situations where my mum had met a couple of really quite quite bad people who were struggling to get on top of their own challenges around drinking too much, essentially. And so, the first guy was a guy called Gary. So imagine a big, 20 stone, and again, I'm not sure how that translates to America, but a big guy.

Drank way too much, in a job that he hated, with a family that he'd taken on, really. And so you've got me, brother, sister, mom, and this guy is suddenly here now who's got the responsibility of looking after you. And he struggled immensely. He wasn't a good person. He was quite an abusive guy.

And there were various moments actually, which kind of came to a crescendo when he finally left, but. You know, when I look back and when I was on the walk, I was thinking about some of the moments life as a child where you thought, you know, I've got kids at this point now I was like, this isn't good.

Like you could never imagine treating your children like this. But, you know, there was a moment where I was trying to clean my football boots with a cloth in the kitchen that, probably I shouldn't have done it. It got dirty or whatever. So I was cleaning my football boots on the stairs at home.

And he would just come back and basically just lay into you and like need me on the side of the head and your head would bang off the wall. And, you know, you would recount these stories to, to mom. And mom was great. Mom's such a loving person, but she was almost in disbelief and it was hard to kind of break through that.

Or her surprise, I guess, to actually get her to understand just how bad it was. Cause obviously she was working a lot of hours and this guy was looking after us as well. He was working a lot of hours, but it was really quite bad. And it came to an end when Gary had kind of got quite aggressive towards mum one night.

And I remember the night quite vividly. I think it was me, brother, sister just stood at the top of the stairs and they'd had a bit of an argument and basically Gary had decided to punch her a couple of times. You know, my brother was probably 14. I was maybe six or seven. Sister was in between the two of us in terms of age.

And kind of literally just stood at the top of the stairs looking on in, in horror. And there was a moment where my brother had gone down to try and kind of interfere and he chased him back up the stairs. And yeah, we'd managed to, to call the police and there's a kind of 6-year-old kid at home.

It's not something you wanna do. It's not something you wanna see. And it was tough, when you look back at it, it was a tough moment, I think. And so we went through life and we carried on. Mum was meandering through another relationship with a guy who was actually much nicer, but also suffered with alcohol addiction.

He thought he was on top of it, but he wasn't. And over the years he kind of succumbeded to, I guess the inevitable for a lot of people actually, and this guy was, I could say much nicer guy, much better father figure, but went down a similar track and their relationship ended in similar fashion And I think when I look back the walk I alluded to around what I'm going to do with life and what I need to do to get passionate about kind of something and the change I want to see in the world, I went back to those experiences and thought, actually, what if, you know, Gary had a place where he could have learned how to become a better stepdad or learn the fundamentals of fatherhood and what if kind of Phil had done the same and managed to keep his addiction at bay and focused on training in the gym or something to take the frustration away or continue his process of recovery with like minded dads, for example. And what if, you know, dad had got the help he needed to fix the relationship and never left, what would have happened? And so it led me to this. Kind of realization that, you know, I was, like I say, a dad at this point, let me see this realization of nothing exists for dads.

Like nothing was there. There was no kind of support network when the kids are born, you're basically just there speaking to your friends down the kind of pub, having a couple of drinks going, this is really hard, isn't it? And so I started to build a community on Facebook called Dadversity and we invited a bunch of dads basically to start getting fit together.

So we started running 5k a day and doing all these things and then it slowly morphed into this thing where dads were coming to me saying, I'm struggling with my relationship. I'm struggling with this and at this point, I'm not an expert in any of this stuff. I'm a, you know, at this point, slightly overweight, Northern recruiter going, hey, I can't give you advice on this stuff.

And so I kind of phased it out a little bit. I was like, if I give advice, I'm actually causing more damage than I'm creating good here. This isn't the right thing to do. But I carried on working in the background. And when I went to Oxford, I was working in the background on what Dadversity could be.

And so by the time finished Oxford, we'd built a community online with actual coaches who specialize in these things. They run a couple of live sessions every single month each. And so we've got this thing now where 20 or 30 live streams are running every month. And we're really just trying to help dads to learn how to live better lives, kind of personally, professionally, and as parents as well to help them not make similar mistakes to kind of dad, Gary and Phil.

[00:12:22] Adam: Wow. What's an example of a workshop or a session that you do? I saw one with a group of dads working out with their kids it looked really fun. But what are some of the sessions that you do in a month?

[00:12:37] Nathan: Yeah. So, so Dadversity is predominantly online. The session that you saw there was an in person event, which was basically a dads and kids bootcamp. So it was like, Hey dads, we're going to bring your kids along. I I think one of the things I realized, Adam, was that after you've had kids, you, or I certainly did, and speaking to friends who are kind of similar is you lose a bit of structure and a bit of kind of focus in certain areas of life.

And one of those areas for me was definitely fitness. Like I love training. I love getting in the gym. And just getting an hour out of the day to day kind of grind, basically. And so, I was speaking to more and more dads, they felt the same. So we're like, look, well, let's run a bootcamp where we're bringing our kids along to get them used to what a gym looks like, and they can kind of see it, and hopefully they get excited by the idea of working out.

And we'll get the dads involved so they get some quality time together and and they can run around and all get excited. So we launched this Dads and Kids Bootcamp in a local town to us. And like you say the PT had a bunch of things going on for kids. Like a dad's tug of war, a kid's tug of war and yeah, the old wheelbarrow race and all these different things that were going on a day and I think what was,  I don't want to turn it into a massively serious event because it was more of a, I mean, it was serious.

It was the first in person event Dadversity had done. So it was big in that respect. But I think the thing I took away from it was the dads having time to connect with their kids. Was so powerful that day and when you walked out of the gym and the kids are wearing the little medals around the neck and they're jumping up and down and the dads are sending the videos of a kid still doing press ups at night and you slowly start to get this sense of actually if we just got the frameworks right for dads to help support the kids on how they should learn how to do things, then we can create a really powerful next generation of people who are more resilient to adversity than our generation has potentially been.

And I think that's the thing that it comes down to Dadversity. It's like, how do we create this generation of wealth of knowledge where kids are in a much stronger position than we are?

[00:14:38] Adam: I love the idea of a dad bootcamp. I could probably benefit from that myself.

[00:14:43] Nathan: Dude, I loved the idea until we did it. It was the hamstrings were in trouble the next day. There was dad hobbling on the school run and all sorts. They weren't thankful, but it was great. It was a great day.

[00:14:52] Adam: Yeah. So you have a partner. And two kids. Tell me a little bit about your family now. How did you meet Natalie and how old are your kids?

[00:15:02] Nathan: Natalie and I were actually at school together. So I was year above in high school. So we met when we were, yeah, I was 15, 14, she would have been 14. And we stayed in contact really. And we ended up officially dating when I was kind of 21 she was yeah, 20. And, think it was always on the cards to be fair, it's one of those relationships that kind of built momentum over time.

And so we, yeah, bought our first house together when we were 25, had kids when we were kind of 30. She's not going to thank me for getting this wrong. 31, 32. Milo yeah, came in 2019. And then his brother Jacob was born around 16, 17 months later. So it was very, very quick on the kids from in terms of the difference between the age group.

But it was always a plan. Kids are interesting, aren't they? you look at other people in your life and think actually I'll do a better job than that, or I'll do a better job, or whatever you think having kids is easy, but actually it's a really kind of interesting dynamic.

And so when we were always planning to have two, they weren't necessarily going to be so close together, but it was always the, it was always the plan.

[00:16:04] Adam: Yeah. And so you and Natalie started dating at the onset of Purple Cloud Recruiting, that sounds about right.

[00:16:13] Nathan: Yeah, it was, yeah, it was it was either just after or just before Purple Cloud. So I had a promotional merchandise company before Purple Cloud. And I remember, I think it was around that time, actually there was only a matter of months in it and we just won a contract for Domino's Pizza to supply all the Domino's franchisees in the UK and Ireland.

It's just like me in a back bedroom, basically, which is crazy when you look back. But I remember Natalie coming over and seeing just boxes and boxes of key rings that needed assembling for these freshers fairs for Dominoes. And she probably thought, shit, what have I done here? But yeah, it was around that time and you know what, I think she's very, very patient because I think when you've tested as many things as kind of I have, and you've kind of had such levels of success with it. And some not, it takes you down all sorts of different kind of emotional roller coasters at times, doesn't it in startup world. And so Natalie has been incredible really, when you look back at the amount of space she's given me just to do stuff.

[00:17:16] Adam: you're the entrepreneur in the family. You get to have all the ideas. Everything from your merch company to your recruiting firm to now to Dadversity. What does Natalie do? Is she the anchor? Does she provide the professional stability in the household?

[00:17:34] Nathan: She does. Yeah, she really does. It's funny I think when you have two people from a very different background. Natalie had a very different upbringing. She had two really good parents, really tight, close family. Her sister, mom, her dad, and then obviously the network around them, around grandparents and stuff.

It was very much more of a conventional family unit. And so I think she brings that to our house. There's never any drama. It's always calm in terms of what's happening and of course, with kids that ramps up a little bit. But she is, the term use there as an anchor is probably about right.

I think she probably calms me down a little bit. I get way too excited about ideas and she's that kind of calming unit just to help me, I guess. She won't thank me for saying calming unit. Christ, that was a terrible phrase. But she's the, I'll take that back.

[00:18:27] Adam: Just don't let her listen to this episode. It's totally totally fine.

[00:18:31] Nathan: She's bored of me speaking about work.

But she's the calm one between us and a much better, I think much more of a natural parent than I am as well in terms of yeah, I think having a more calm upbringing, but I think both areas play into each other quite well. I think you know, having such a calm house probably is it good?

I'm not sure, who knows? But yeah, she's definitely the calm one between us.

[00:18:50] Adam: That's good. That's good. Calm and stable, you balance each other out nicely.

[00:18:54] Nathan: Yeah, I think so.

[00:18:55] Adam: What is the earliest memory that you have after becoming a dad?

[00:19:00] Nathan: Oh, that is a really, really interesting question. The earliest memory was bringing Milo home. I'm a big Wolves fan. I'm not sure if you like your football or your soccer, depending on where you are. I'm a big Wolves fan. And so we have this like old gold kit, and I remember Milo coming home and we were playing against Man City that day.

In fact, that's a lie. We played against Man City in the hospital the day before he was born. I was watching on my phone thinking I probably shouldn't be watching the game, but what else am I going to do in a really uncomfortable chair? And so, When Milo came home, had game on Wolsey's first ever European game.

So we're in a European tournament since I was born, basically. And so Milo was home on the first day and I remember thinking, he has got to be a lucky omen here. Because we haven't played in Europe since I've been born. Milo's arrived and suddenly we're in Europe and we're absolutely flying. And so he was born during Wolsey's best period in the last kind of 40 or 50 years, and ever since then we’ve gone back to tiger and we're terrible again.

So he wasn't the lucky omen I was expecting. But I did wrap him in a wolf's kit on day one. I remember taking a nice little picture which I'll share with you after this for context, if you managed to get this to touch with an episode, but I was in my wolf shirt, he was in my wolf shirt and that's like life goals for a dad, isn't it?

When you indoctrinate your child with the terrible football team so early, that's basically life goals. 

[00:20:22] Adam: He’s going to know a lot about adversity growing up with that football team.

[00:20:25] Nathan: Let me stop you there. I should probably own a sports section of Dadversity and just launch it immediately. Cause he's going to be, he's going to be in trouble, the poor kid.

[00:20:34] Adam: Yeah. So speaking of Dadversity, so you've gone all in you left your job, this is your thing now. How do you balance that effort and going all in? on Dadversity with being a good dad to your two kids, Milo and Jacob and a good partner to your wife, Natalie?

[00:20:56] Nathan: Yeah. Do you know what, Adam? I don't, I do a terrible job. It's funny. I talk about Dadversity all day long in my sleep and I love the concepts, but I've actually, the more I watch the live streams coming through, the more I think it's probably built purposely for me to try and just get better as a person.

I do a terrible job. I put so much into it. In terms of in front of a laptop, but also when I'm not in front of a laptop, just constantly thinking about it, as I think most people probably do when they've got, a startup going on or even a job they're committed to that I very rarely kind of present in situations outside of kind of work time.

And I think that cascades into lots of areas of life. You know, when I look at quick messages you send to Natalie, before we did this podcast, it was like, hey, just on a podcast, everything okay? And that it's just like, you know, little things like that. The messages where you think you're always in a rush, you're always doing something you've very rarely got time for kind of deeper conversations with your wife and your kids through the week. Cause you just feel like you have got to respond to the 20 LinkedIn messages you've got off random dads who are like, hey, you know, I'm trying to fix this. This is my story. And I think Dadversity has been, it's very early days, but it's almost been like a blessing and a curse because we're solving so many challenges for people, which is incredible.

It's also very overwhelming when you get messages from dads around the world who you don't know going, actually, I've got this problem, actually, I've done this or I'm struggling with this, can you help? Or I really like Dadversity, can we talk about it? Like it's amazing. It's the best thing I've ever done.

And I get so much positive energy from it, but it's overwhelming sometimes, you know, when you've got a family to look after and, and you're trying to be present for your wife and you're trying to maintain a level of physical and mental fitness for yourself. It's very difficult to balance and I'm not got that yet.

I can't honestly say there's a mechanism for me getting that right. I have been kind of down the rabbit hole more recently on live streams through Dadversity with coaches who have basically given advice on this and there's some really good stuff that's come out the other side, but I've done a terrible job, mate.

[00:23:03] Adam: What's a piece of advice that you're trying to action in your life or work on maybe something you've heard from one of the coaches?

[00:23:13] Nathan: Yeah. Two things. If we're being really candid for the sake of the podcast and for the dots out there, who are probably feeling the same way. I think one of them is around relationships, actually. And relationships with your partners or wives or whatever situation you've got going on at home.

And we had one of the coaches talking about this the other day, and he was just like, high performing men or men who have got the ambition to perform higher, often speak to their partners, like their colleagues at work, and it was just like, they're often really cold and calculated. And he said, like, the behaviors you have at work around, I don't know, like efficiency and I don't know, there was like five different skills and behaviors that he listed. Were totally different to the behaviors that you need to take into your home life to build stronger relationships.

And I was listening to him just going like, all of the behaviors he talks about around being successful at work, you can relate them back to yourself, but then I also take them home as well. And you're like, how can you be more efficient? Well, you sit there at home with your kids doing homework and you kind of internally roll your eyes when your kid gets something wrong, because you're tired and it's been a long day and you're like, how do you not know two plus two?

Like, how can you not get this into your head? And realistically, you're taking those behaviors back, you're trying to be more kind of efficient, like you are in work with your time instead of being more compassionate and loving towards the people that matter basically. And so that's one of the things and I'm genuinely trying to make conscious effort now take those skills or the positive skills back home.

But you have to have a point where you switch off, I guess, and just leave work. And so the other one is around it's glorified time blocking, actually, Adam. So, you know, with your calendar, it's like, how much time do you actually have to create kind of peak working time? If you've got two hour blocks here and you've not got the school run, or you've not been to the gym, or you're not having lunch, or what are the actual peak hours that you have in your week where you can say, right, this is work time. And as soon as it's done. You're not going to do any more. That was always more you can do, but when you're working away in your laptop until midnight, which I have been for the last, probably, you know, two months doing this thing, it's like I wake up the next morning, there's still a mountain of tasks to do.

So I think that's the other thing as well. It's like how effectively am I using my time to actually build a better life or a holistically better life with family alongside business alongside fitness and all these different elements, which I think is something entrepreneurs and people that are launching something typically struggle with.

[00:25:39] Adam: So I wanted to ask you, obviously you've learned in doing dadversity and talking to coaches yourself. But you didn't have a lot of great dad role models growing up. We established this early on. Pretty much the opposite, in fact, of good dad role models. How did you learn about being a dad and is this something that you were genuinely worried about when you became a dad for the first time, just that you didn't have anyone growing up that you could point to and say, ah that's an example of what a good dad looks like.

[00:26:17] Nathan: Yeah, it's a good question. I think genuinely worried for sure. Fairly fortunate in that, you know, Natalie's dad is a really good guy. I think we're also fairly fortunate in that with the way the world is now in terms of kind of digital you're able to find people and finances fairly quickly, if you're willing to commit the time.

And so I, you know, for me, Adam, academically, I was always really crap like at school. I never wanted to do it. I always wanted to launch something. I always wanted to do my own thing basically. And so I invested a lot of time into learning after school and trying to just develop as a person through kind of content essentially and business related stuff.

And then when it came to parents and I just applied the same logic, I would just like, look, listen, you're not the first person to have a kid on the planet. Yes. You didn't have great role models but you aren't the first person to have kind of gone through this scenario and so actually it's, there's a lot of information out there just go and consume it and go and figure it out and I think that’s been the majority of life really, Adam, when you look at the scrappy nature of it and sometimes again, I think it's a blessing and a curse, I look at some friends who have had really good, good things happen in life and, you know, they have their kind of couple of family holidays a year and they have all these great things growing up and they've got a secure family unit.

I wouldn't back them to go and get into scrappy mode and build something from nothing. And so I think there's good and bad that comes from all this stuff. And especially around the parenting stuff, it's like, look, there's a blank canvas here. You know what you didn't like as a kid? You know what was bad as a kid?

Don't do that stuff. I think if you feel like you're getting frustrated with the kids, which happens a lot, I think for a lot of parents, it's like what is it that's driving it? I'd go down the kind of rabbit hole and figure it out. And yeah, and so I had to do a lot of that, actually.

When I look back and analyze kind of some of my behaviors after Milo was born and some of the kind of frustrations early on and everything else, you're constantly thinking about what it is I need to change about myself to get better. And I thought, I don't think that's a thing that's kind of change in life.

I think I've pretty much carried that through all the time.

[00:28:27] Adam: So you, in my research, I noticed that you have a podcast for Dadversity and you've done nearly 20 episodes

[00:28:35] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:28:39] Adam: And some of these are actually most of them are big stories of Dadversity. A lot of loss, a lot of struggle.

Which conversation has stuck with you the most throughout those 20 conversations, or maybe even beyond that, because you mentioned you get messages every day from people on LinkedIn and other things. So which one really do you kind of remember the most?

[00:29:05] Nathan: Yeah without doubt. It's a guy called James Melville Ross, an incredible story. So this guy is a partner in a PR and comms firm. His dad was the CEO of a major bank over here in the UK at 30 years old, the youngest CEO they've had. His granddad was a submarine commander, an incredible family.

With incredible stories, incredible wealth. And I think to James's point in his life has probably seen very little adversity in comparison to other people. He met his wife at university and they ended up trying to have kids, but couldn't. And so they got to the age of like, I think it was 25 and they were trying and trying and trying.

And then his now wife did a pregnancy test one day, he went for a walk and he saw a magpie in front of him and he was like, oh shit, like one for sorrow, as the old saying goes, and then he saw another one, which was like, oh, it's two for joy. So maybe, maybe we are pregnant this time. And he went home and it transpires that, you know, after years of not being able to have a baby, they found out they were pregnant.

And as time went on, both kids were born and they were both born or they were both diagnosed after nine months with quadriplegic cerebral palsy. Which was just a, such a life shift, I think for someone like, James who self admittedly kind of said, you know, we've not had adversity before and suddenly we've got two beautiful twins who can't feed themselves, talk, move their hands, move their arms, whatever, it's just a, it's a wild story.

And I think, what I get from those things and from these moments and these interviews are that you have to be ready because regardless of your circumstances, adversity is going to come at some stage in some format and you just have to have the frameworks to try and make it easier for yourself.

And so I think that was the podcast where I thought you know what, adversity touches the untouchable at times and you, yeah, you really have to be ready. But some of the stuff he's done mate is just incredible in terms of the, like the level of care that him and his wife have given the kids and the life expectancy has just been surpassed.

And our 21, the twins, or maybe 22 at the time of recording this. And they do incredible things like paragliding in wheelchairs and stuff like we just do incredible things together as a family. And he's just a great example of a dad who. Yeah, they're very, very lucky to have.

[00:31:33] Adam: Well, that is, I will have to link to that story in our show notes. When you think about yourself becoming a dad what would you say the most surprising things are that you've discovered in your fatherhood journey?

[00:31:48] Nathan: I think how hard it is, Adam. I don't, you know, it's kind of funny when I said to my mate after the boys were like six, oh, after Milo was six months old and maybe it was after Jacob was six months old. I remember saying to the lads in the pub, like, I can suddenly see why dad left.

We were, we were kind of half joking and half not, because you get to a point where you're just like, this is brutal. You've not slept for three years, the waking up every 20 minutes, suddenly when things are going well, one of them gets ill, nursery, like an official bug farm, you just end up picking all sorts of germs up and they're sick and the cost of actually doing it.

And I think one of the things that I learned, I would probably say the biggest thing is not to put too much pressure on myself to push forward in a kind of professional sense for the first 12 months. I really wish I'd stepped back from work a little bit more for the first 12 months.

It was hard as a freelancer because I needed to get some cash through the door to pay for things like nursery. Having a baby. And also Natalie took time off work for she basically went part time for the last four years to look after them and spend more time with them. But I think if there was one thing I would have done, it would probably have been stepping back from the professional scene a little bit.

So I think that was the biggest learning. 

[00:33:07] Adam: And that's if you could go back in time and give younger Nathan some advice, that would be probably the number one piece of advice.

[00:33:16] Nathan: Do you know what's funny is, I think it would be. But then I also found a bit of salvaging work during the madness of having a kid. It was almost like a bit of normality in life, where you looked at it and went, I've got 20 minutes just to focus on work here, or a couple of hours or whatever. So it's an interesting one.

I don't know what the advice would be. I think certainly a moment, it's like put the phone away and just go all in and focus. But yeah, I'm not entirely sure what I would have done differently if I do it again, and we may well do it again, who knows?

We probably won't, but who knows? And don't think I would change too much. I don't think it's been a you know, an absolute disaster class of parenting, but I think there are little, little bits and certainly the first, yeah, the first six months you realize how precious they are when they're a bit older.

And you go, do you remember when they were just kind of sat there and you're having a cuddle on the sofa and you could just kind of, yeah, they weren't crawling around wrecking your house. And then you get to a point, don't you, where they get a little bit older, Milo’s five, Jacob's three now.

And And now it's full on, isn't it? It's like everything at the weekend is geared around just kids and what they're doing and activities and everything. So, so yeah, I think the first six months are incredibly precious and I think I would have been a lot more, if I had the time again, I think the lesson would have been be more present during that time.

[00:34:34] Adam: Yeah. Do you recall getting any advice from anyone that you would tell your younger self to ignore?

[00:34:40] Nathan: That is a good question. What advice would I have got that I would have ignored? you know, with like broad generic advice on the internet where someone will say something, it's like, hey, this is how you fix this. Or this is how it from here to here or circumstances are never the same.

Are they? And so I think there's an element of logic that needs to be applied to people's lives when they're giving advice generally, everyone's great at giving advice and I'm the same. I'm genuinely trying to stop myself from giving as much advice as possible and just kind of listening at key moments.

I think I'm less tolerant now to taking advice from people who have been on a very different track because that logic application just doesn't always come through. Because just people have their own experiences, don't they?

It's just very, very different. And the way we see the world is different and all the little intricacies of it are very different. And so, yeah, it's a very interesting one.

[00:35:40] Adam: Yeah. It's kind of like building a company in certain regards, right? Where plenty of advice people have if they've started a company or a few companies and they just want to dispense that. And yet heir context is probably so different than your context.

[00:35:58] Nathan: Oh, dude, dude, I'm making a move to be as transparent as possible. I'm going to drive for Uber to keep diversity going. That's the runway for VC opening his checkbook saying, hey, here's a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Go make it work. You've got 12 months. This is, you know, we are kind of ground level hustling away over here.

And so you are absolutely right. I've had founders reach out to say, hey, what can I do? And I look at their history and it's like, we've got funded for a fifth exit and you're going, well, yeah, but you've also just been given a huge amount of cash to try and make it work. And so, that's not necessarily the wrong way.

It's just a different way. And I think that the context has to be applied to every individual situation. And then when you've done that, just move as fast as possible

[00:36:41] Adam: what is your favorite book to read to your kids?

[00:36:44] Nathan: Dude, this is a really interesting one. Last night I had this conversation with a friend. I'm going to start writing kids books. So I'm going to start creating them. I'm a terrible writer, but they're going to be about little adventures that are layered in like truth. Just full on brutal honesty without the swearing, of course.

But kids books, usually do What do we do? all the cliche stuff, really, Adam, you know, you know what it's like, who goes to the library, pick up all the the usual dragon adventure books and dinosaur books and stuff. and there's some lessons within those as well.

When it's funny, When you read them as a parent, you kind of pick out the little lessons the author is trying to tell you along the way. Whereas when you read them as a kid, it's just totally different. Like the dinosaur that pooped the diamond or whatever and you're just going, oh, there's a little lesson there for the kids, I get that.

And so, but yeah, the kids are reading it going, It's a dinosaur, he just pooped a diamond. Like they don't give a shit basically. And so we read pretty standard kids books, but I am really intrigued about this idea of starting to just create little books on wherever Canva or something, and just doing like the real life adventures of daddy or something and trying to give them actual lessons that they can hopefully apply to life and some of the things I've learned along the way.

I think that would be quite cool.

[00:37:50] Adam: Love that. Have you developed over the course of five and three years with your two kids, you developed any particular frameworks or guardrails for parenting? I realize we literally just ended a segment where we said, don't give advice. Be careful what advice you take, but I'm just curious for you living your own life, not necessarily for somebody else to adopt this, but have you developed your own kind of framework or or approach that really works for you and your family?

[00:38:25] Nathan: Yeah, do you know, the biggest one for me has been not neglecting my physical fitness and this will matter to different people at different stages. But for me, I don't do any work now until I've been to the gym for an hour in the morning. And it's less about muscle growth or anything like that for me, it's more around just the mental impact is massive. And I'm just a nicer person to be around when I've been and had an hour in the gym. Basically when I've been and done some sort of physical exercise, I just feel better, yeah, I think that's been the biggest learning for me, actually.

I think it's important when you become a dad you can't neglect yourself, can you? It's hard to perform at a high level in every area of life. If you're neglecting yourself And I think that's probably the one broad piece of advice that I could give to other dads who are just about to become dads or early in the journey and it goes for your partner as well. Like if you're both neglecting your kind of fitness and mental conditioning just to get through, feels like a bit of a silly idea.

[00:39:24] Adam: Yea. So the morning is your time, because you did mention that you’re now running a company, raising kids, being a partner, driving for Uber to bootstrap your company. So it's got to be that morning routine for you.

[00:39:39] Nathan: Got to be. Yeah, it's got to be. yeah, I think it's got to be. And historically I'm terrible at routine, Adam. It's like the worst thing in my repertoire of non skills, but if I did have skills, setting up a routine and being consistent with it is the worst. I'm trying at that.

But the one for me after the little guy has been dropped off at school. It's like, just go and do it. Because I know if I come home, start working for a couple of hours. Do all the podcasts and live streams, all the other stuff going on with the business and then try and peel myself away to go to the gym.

It just won't happen.

[00:40:08] Adam: I have that same problem. Once you get into something, you don't want to pull yourself away from it. So you might as well have that be the first thing you do. Then you're done. Then if you do nothing else for the rest of the day, you've at least done that.

[00:40:19] Nathan: Mate, I feel guilty as well. Like I feel guilty about leaving work or, I don't know, it's just your brain. I just how my brains wired. It seems weird when you say it out loud, but I feel guilty starting work and having lunch and taking another hour to go to the gym. And part of me thinks your output's been crap today.

Don't go, you know? And even though I work like late at night and everything else, I just feel, I feel bad. Like I feel. Like I should be doing more. So my way of dealing with that is just to go first thing in the morning, just get it done. And I can't, I'm not an early riser. I'm not like a 4am club kind of guy, unfortunately.

I know the incredibly popular LinkedIn posts are instructing us to get up at 4 and have the old ice bath, but I'm definitely not a 4 o'clocker, so I can't go that far then.

[00:41:00] Adam: I think that's a special breed of people that can get up at four and do the ice bath. It is not this person. It's not this podcast host.

[00:41:08] Nathan: It's definitely not this guy either after a midnight finish and kids kicking you in the face in bed all night, it's definitely not going to be a four am start on an ice bath.

[00:41:16] Adam: Maybe you want to throw the kid into the ice bath and when happens…

[00:41:19] Nathan: No kids were harmed in the production of this podcast, folks.

[00:41:23] Adam: I love that. So, I found that partnership is really important when you have kids. I think probably there isn't a dad that you would have on your show that would disagree with that statement. But it's also really hard to agree with your partner a hundred percent of the time. So what is something that you and Natalie don't agree on when it comes to parenting?

[00:41:44] Nathan: Adam, you're fired up for 6am, aren't you?

[00:41:48] Adam: It is early here. Well, you know, I jumped in the ice bath before.

[00:41:54] Nathan: He's been in the ice bath for two hours. What don't we agree on? I think I get lots of wacky ideas around parenting. I think the thing we don't agree on is to not pursue my wacky ideas around parenting. So I look at like homeschooling at the moment. I don't know what it's like in the States.

Is this thing kind of caught fire over there as well and is popular?

[00:42:13] Adam: It is, I think, becoming more popular. I've had a few dads on the show who do that. I think the pandemic certainly accelerated it as well.

[00:42:22] Nathan: That's interesting. So I've been looking at it recently. I'm of the mold at the moment to just like travel the world, build Dadversity out on the road and go and live in lots of different countries and give the kids experiences. And I think that's probably the biggest thing that we disagree on.

I don't think that's about the kids necessarily. I think that's about the whole piece around grandparents being here and everything, you know, mom and dad and everything else. You know, our family's isn't as tight as Natalie's family. And so it's a lot easier for me to just go, right, we're off bye, but I think that the biggest thing is like, I don't want the kids to have a conventional lifestyle where they grow up, go to university, get saddled with debt, get a mortgage and basically do what I've done.

I don't want that to happen for them. I want them to go and experience lots more things. I want them to go and figure out what exists in the world and go and enjoy themselves as well. And, for me, it's about giving them the kind of financial ability to go and do that stuff. But I want them to see from an early age that you can do way more than just living, a house for kind of 10, 15 years and not move around, you know. 

[00:43:20] Adam: What's something that you had to give up to become a dad?

[00:43:23] Nathan: My season ticket for wolves. Yeah, basically that's easy. It's a big lifestyle adjustment. What do we have to give up? I think naturally you give up your Hey, look, I don't know if you, you had the same experience, but mine was your social circle just get way smaller, way faster because you've got friends who aren't dads. And so we don't get it.

And then you've got friends who are dads who are just going through the middle and don't have as much time anymore. And so I think that's probably the biggest thing. What did you give up?

[00:43:55] Adam: What did I give up?

[00:43:57] Nathan: Hmm.

[00:43:57] Adam: Oh, I think at different points you give up different things. But then some of those things come back. So in the beginning you give up sleep or at least you get a lot less of it. But you know, my kids are older now, not so much older, but they're not newborns anymore and they like to sleep.

And so, you know, you get a little bit more sleep because the kids are self sufficient. They can make themselves a piece of toast in the morning and you don't have to be there to make sure that they don't burn the house down with the toaster oven. You know, so just different things

[00:44:29] Nathan: Think I'm nervous about those days where the kids get older and they don't need you as much. I mean, I'm kind of, I'm a bit sad about those days because you can feel them getting closer. So I think, I think, yeah, what did I give up? I think it was yeah, on a personal level, it genuinely was the kind of social life just isintegrated into thin air, basically. And you're right. there'll be lots of other things on the side. But some, some good stuff as well. You give up some good stuff. I think one thing I, here's a deep answer for you, Adam. One thing I gave up when the kids were born were groups of friends that were paper friends, people that you've known for kind of 10, 15 years, and you kind of send a WhatsApp message to, or you're in some groups, but you really just see each other once a year and go for a beer, but they're still draining because the WhatsApp messages are pinging all day and they're sending memes and stuff, and you're talking about football and different things, but they're not actual friends.

You know, they don't really know them that well. And so I actually chose to give up a lot of of those kind of friendship groups on the periphery, I mean, I'm always there for people if anyone needs me, it's like, I'm there and I'll be able to support them, but I think my intention was go and build a smaller group of real strong relationships with people rather than such a broad group of friends who you don't necessarily spend a lot of time with quality time, you know.

[00:45:46] Adam: Paper friends, I like that expression.

[00:45:49] Nathan: I think they are. I think you're over life you just accumulate a bunch of people who you've got things in common with and naturally, you know, sending messages on WhatsApp, you're chatting. But yeah, I think beyond kind of a superficial stuff around your hobby, your interest around football, for example, it's like, where does a relationship go beyond that?

And the reality is like, nobody's really got the time to invest in those relationships, especially when you have kids, because it's hard to forge good relationships with people, isn't it?

[00:46:13] Adam: It's true, it's very true. What's a mistake that you've made as a dad?

[00:46:18] Nathan: Yeah. That's a tough question, you know. There's so many little mistakes. I think the first mistake was thinking it would be easier than it was. Cause it wasn't. And so that, that was a mistake. I think the part of me wishes I had settled into a corporate job before the kids came. Then it would have been a bit easier around more security when they arrived rather than being a freelancer.

So I think I put myself on the back foot. Initially without any kind of repeatable business. When the kids were young, it was very, very messy with work and business and stuff. But I wish I had invested more time in parenting skills. I wish I'd learned more about kind of what kids were like and the psychology and the shift of behaviors and what actually you experienced as a dad, you know, in the UK, there's some crazy stats around.

Becoming a father and it's something like 25 percent of dads in the UK fall into depression after having kids and they're just the reported figures. And so I think a lot of that is just the life shift that happens and the lack of structure you have in your life, which prepares you for the pressures that kids actually bring, which is massive pressures financially and in your relationship and the shift in your partners.

Behaviors and all that sort of stuff. I think I was just vastly underprepared for that, side. And I think that would have been the lesson I took away from it all, you know.

[00:47:46] Adam: Last question for you. How can people follow along or be helpful to you? As you're building Dadversity and going about your life.

[00:47:58] Nathan: Join the movement. It's not a movement, is it? Is it?

[00:48:02] Adam: You know what, what is movement really just two people heading in the same direction.

And I imagine you've got more than two.

[00:48:10] Nathan: Yeah. Yeah. No, look, we’re building something cool. I think it's cool. A bunch of people are in there. Dads are getting some advice. I think the big thing would be guys don't talk too often. And so I think Dadversity is a great place for them to start learning about stuff organically.

And so if you know a dad. Send them my way. You can probably, you can find me kicking around. I'm on the most boring social platform of all time. I spend most of my time on LinkedIn which is very sad, but I, you can also find me on Instagram. It's Nathan Jefferson or LinkedIn at Nathan Jefferson. And I'm more than happy to have conversations with dads or at least signpost them into the community.

It's free, Adam. It's free for everyone or every dad. So, yeah, come in, get some help, spend some time with other dads who are facing similar challenges and who've tackled adversity and it will be better if life is a little bit tough for you.

[00:48:57] Adam: All right. Well we will point people in the direction of Dadversity and then eventually buying your children's books. You're going to be a bestselling author soon. So it's coming.

[00:49:07] Nathan: If you love books with a lack of imagination and plenty of spelling mistakes, you will love my new range of children's books.

[00:49:13] Adam: Don't be so hard on yourself. Chat GPT makes all the spelling mistakes go away these days.

[00:49:18] Nathan: Exactly.

[00:49:19] Adam: Are you ready for our lightning round?

[00:49:23] Nathan: Let's have it. See what you've got for me. I thought that was the lightning round?

[00:49:27] Adam: No, no. Lightning round. Here are the rules of the lightning round. I ask you a question, you say the first thing that comes to mind. And then we move on. And that's it. here we go. Alright. What is the most indispensable parenting product that you've ever purchased?

[00:49:44] Nathan: A dummy.

[00:49:45] Adam: What is the most useless parenting product that you've ever purchased?

[00:49:51] Nathan: No idea, Adam. Useless parenting product. Probably the how to parent book.

[00:49:58] Adam: What is the ideal day with your kids involved?

[00:50:03] Nathan: I know I keep going back to the football, but I really want to take my boys to the first game.

[00:50:07] Adam: The Wolves.

[00:50:08] Nathan: Yeah, gotta get into the first Wolves game. That would be the idea. It's going to happen in the next few months. Natalie's in. She thinks it's too young, but it's going to happen. 

[00:50:15] Adam: Which one of your kids is your favorite?

[00:50:18] Nathan: Its brutal, that is brutal. Oh God. I'm sorry, Jacob, but it's Milo.

[00:50:29] Adam: Is that just because Milo's the oldest?

[00:50:33] Nathan: It's your number one, isn't it? Number one. It is different, but it's, yeah. I get more sensitive around Milo, around like, how he's feeling and stuff, which is really sad. I'm so sorry. Yeah.

[00:50:45] Adam: That's okay. In 15 years Jacob will listen to this and wonder what went wrong.

Nathan:When he sells his company he’s going to write me out of the check.

Adam: Right. What is the most frustrating thing that has ever happened to you as a dad?

[00:50:59] Nathan: Being out of control. Yeah, being out of control.

[00:51:04] Adam: What is your go to dad wardrobe?

[00:51:09] Nathan: Actually changed more recently. It's more gym gear, to be honest, really boring sportswear. Just literally get up, get my gym gear, go to the gym. And that's it. I'm a really boring guy, unfortunately. Terrible.

[00:51:21] Adam: That's okay. How many parenting books do you have in your house?

[00:51:25] Nathan: We've got three, I'm looking at them now, and two of them are unread.

[00:51:31] Adam: I was just gonna say, how many have you read cover to cover?

[00:51:34] Nathan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. None cover to cover, the first one was at least four pages deep, and I thought, this is going to be hell, so I won't read any more.

[00:51:43] Adam: What is a favorite age for your kids?

[00:51:47] Nathan: For peace, the first six months for fun when they hit around four,

[00:51:51] Adam: Okay. What is your least favorite age?

[00:51:53] Nathan: Definitely the tantrum years, two to three, get in the bin. Can't deal with them as they go.

[00:51:58] Adam: Have you ever secretly thrown away a piece of your kid's artwork?

[00:52:03] Nathan: Yeah, yeah, pretty much all the pieces that come back from nursery. Yeah.

[00:52:11] Adam: And there's a lot of them. What is the most absurd thing that one of your kids has ever asked you to buy for them?

[00:52:19] Nathan: Milo actually went through a stage of just demanding random clothes in shops and there'd be anything from like women's summer dresses to something really random things nothing too crazy beyond that.

[00:52:30] Adam: What is the most difficult kid's TV show that you've ever had to sit through?

[00:52:35] Nathan: Coco Melon. Oh my god. I hate that.

[00:52:42] Adam: If there was a prize for the number one answer to that question, I think it would be Cocomelon.

[00:52:46] Nathan: They like, they use tactics to basically brainwash kids I read the other day. They're basically, the colors and the noises, they're just like hypnotizing kids and they hypnotize me as well. I think the problem is, half an hour after the kids have gone to bed, you know you're in trouble when you're still sat there watching Cocomelon and in a daze.

[00:53:04] Adam: When you and Natalie are just mesmerized by Cocomelon.

[00:53:08] Nathan: Exactly. Worst show ever existed.

[00:53:11] Adam: What is your favorite kids movie?

[00:53:16] Nathan: Sing 2.

[00:53:19] Adam: Ah, the one that U2 won. Okay, Bono.

What is the worst experience that you have ever had assembling a kids toy Or a piece of furniture?

[00:53:32] Nathan: It was a bed from Ikea and when we got to the end, I realized I put the back on the wrong way and all the wood chip was showing and then to take it apart, I basically had to break it and then order a new bed and rebuild it again. Took me about four hours. I'm crap at DIY. I never, I don't know anything about holding a drill.

I don't know anything about anything when it comes to being a bloke, basically. And so, any form of flat park or building something is a disaster in that route. That and a Batman cave at Christmas nearly sent me under, but we managed to get through the Batman cave.

[00:54:09] Adam: Ikea bed and the Batman cave. Okay. These are great.

[00:54:13] Nathan: Yea stay away from both brands, especially IKEA,

[00:54:16] Adam: Okay. Have you ever accidentally mixed up your kids' names?

[00:54:21] Nathan: Regularly.

[00:54:23] Adam: What nostalgic movie can you just not wait to force your kids to watch with you?

[00:54:31] Nathan: Oh, dude, there's two, you know, all of my mates give me a lot of stick because I'm not a big movie watcher, but Home Alone is a classic and they're at the age of Home Alone, aren't they? The other one is the Green Mile. They're going to watch The Green Mile. Great Film

[00:54:49] Adam: Green Mile. Great film. Steven Spielberg, Tom Hanks.

[00:54:53] Nathan: Tom Hanks. Great film.

[00:54:55] Adam: How many times have you said, go ask your mother this week?

[00:55:01] Nathan: I'm not going to be specific, but what? 3,423 roughly.

[00:55:07] Adam: How many times has Natalie said to go ask your father?

[00:55:12] Nathan: Probably around similar. No, yeah. She's much better than that than me, actually. She deals with stuff. I'm just like, yeah. Kids, just go and grab mom. She's the decision maker with the kids. I can't I'm Yeah. My decision making as we've heard throughout this podcast episode is reckless at best.

So she it's wise that she makes the calls.

[00:55:31] Adam: Awesome. And finally, I don't know how this plays with the UK, but what is your take on minivans?

[00:55:39] Nathan: Oh dude. Yeah. No, love this. So the next iteration of Dadversity is to get a minivan podcast studio. And just travel around the country doing interviews. So I am all over the van life. I would love to get one in the next 12 months. Watch this space.

[00:55:58] Adam: Wow. Wow. Mobile podcasting studio in the minivan

[00:56:03] Nathan: How cool would that be?

[00:56:04] Adam: I'm sold. I'm in, that sounds great.

[00:56:08] Nathan: Wouldn’t that be great?

[00:56:09] Adam: Yeah, you may have convinced me to do one for this show.

[00:56:12] Nathan: Well, if you use code Nathan, no, no, no, no, no. That's what I wanted. That's what I want. I want to be out of the yeah, podcasts with dads who've got interesting stories to tell. I think that'd be really cool.

[00:56:22] Adam: Awesome. Well, watch this space, as you said, for Dadversity hashtag van life. It's coming.

Alright, Nathan, thank you so much for joining me today on Startup Dad. This was a really great conversation and I appreciate you taking the time.

[00:56:38] Nathan: You very nearly made me cry at least four times. So thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

[00:56:44] Adam: Thank you for listening to today's conversation with Nathan Jefferson. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, share, and leave me a review on Apple or Spotify. It'll help other people find this podcast. Startup Dad is a Fishman AF production with editing support from Tommy Harron.

You can join a community of over 11,000 subscribers and stay up to date on my thoughts on growth, growth, product and parenting by subscribing to the Fishman AF newsletter at www.fishmanafnewsletter.com. Thanks for listening and see you next week.